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Old 05-23-2019, 01:34 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,218,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Apologists and historians not expert in this area of history say so.

There are good hisorians on both sides, sdo we all get to choose the one9) that seem mot reasonable to us.


Some historians much better than I say he was not mentioned. And they give very good reasons for this.T
I too can give very good reasons, so I have evidence, not opinion. I leave opinion to you, Kermit.


You are forgetting the subject---Jesus is not mentioned by any secular historiass. That is not an opnion.


Quote:
The chart was made by historians much better than you. It is interesting you cry 'historians' when you need to, but deny them when they go against your ignorant opinions, Kermit.

They haven't gone against me. There are secular historians that mention Jesus by name. You said there were none. So they have gone against you.



Quote:
Can you spell dishonest hypocrisy, Kermit?


Of course: Harry Diogenes
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:39 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,218,042 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
The Return to Nazareth
19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt
20 and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who were trying to take the child’s life are dead.”
21 So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel.
22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee,
23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

You said He returned to Judea. This passages says He went and lived in Nazareth.


Quote:

I know, that is what I said.

Luke says they (his parents, with or without Jesus) visited Jerusalem (in Judea) at least once a year until Jesus was 12.

I must have misread what you said.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:43 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,218,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
No, your argument was not rational. The conclusion was rational.



No, the link asserts he was. But several are later interpolations; others are based on the Bible, so are not independent; and several do not even mention Jesus.

Instead of your usual opinion, go and find what Phlegon actually said.

This not about what Philegon said. You said Jesus is not mentioned in secular history. Google the subject and you will see you Are wrong.


"several" does not mean "all."
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:46 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,218,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
As usual, you pretending the evidence has not been presented many times before. And you accuse us of bearing false witness.



Yes.

What they say may be wrong,but you can't prove it and all of them mention Jesus b y name. That is the subject of this discussion.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:50 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,218,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
There is lots of evidence. Go read a book, or listen to a podcast, or (if that's too much trouble) just use Wikipedia. Even apologists are generally careful to say things like "....TRADITION holds that the gospels were written by MMLJ," but scholars agree they were written anonymously, with the names assigned much later.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...ryId=124572693

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...rship_and_date



It is well known that no one can prove or disproved the men usually assigned to each gospel are the authors. Who wrote them is irrelevant. What they wrote, no matter who they were only wrote what God inspired them to write.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:53 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I found the same thing to be true.

However, I feel that a statement in Wikipedia sums it all up pretty well for me, although I realize others may see it differently:

"The historicity of Jesus is the question if Jesus of Nazareth can be regarded as a historical figure. Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical-critical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain, although they differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels."

But once again, I feel christians are on the wrong path. Rather than try to prove the un-provable, they should discuss the validity of the "teachings".

All of Jesus' teaching are valid. Can you give some that are not and why they are not?
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:56 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,218,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
In all honesty, we know virtually NOTHING about those four men, about their honesty, about their lives, etc.

That's right so you ccn't say they were not honest. You also can't say they did no write the gospel assigned to them.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:59 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,218,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Omega, you're lying again. The link is no good. I've googled "historians who mention the name, Jesus." Only Josephus comes up. See how deceptive you are??
Readers, THIS is why Christians *ARE FORCED* To Tell Lies To Defend Their Faith

You are lying when you say I have lied. Your OPINIONS are not evidence and that is all you have offered. When I googled the subject, I got at least 10 sites that discussed the subject.
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:05 PM
 
11,250 posts, read 11,267,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
... all of them mention Jesus by name.

I simply do not know how Omega gets away with telling blatant lies like this with no shame. I have stated before and so have others that no one outside of Josephus mentions Jesus by name. Tacitus and Suetonius and Pliny mention "Chrestians" and a few others mention "wise teacher". That's it. That's all there is. Omega keeps saying, "There are others that mention Jesus by name. Look them up. I won't tell you their names." Well, any idiot can see this is a pure dodge and Omega hasn't got a single name to mention or believe me, he'd gladly mention it to support his position. But when Christians are forced to lie to defend their faith as Omega is doing right now, then we're not really surprised he must resort to lies to save face.
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:07 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,218,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
come now. We know that Jesus was at times mentioned by historians - but they were evidently repeating Christian claims, not attesting to his existence of their own knowledge. That's if they even refer to Jesus at all. Pliny, for instance only talk about Christians. Suetonius talks about a "Chreshtus" who may not be the Jesus of the gospels at all.

Amusing---"evidently " means you are guessing.



Quote:
On the other hand, Bar Serapeon talks about the Jews killing their own king. Though Jesus isn't mentioned, that (by process of elimination) has to be whom he means. But the idea that the 'Jews killed their king' is evidently repeating the Christian belief.

There you go with "evidently" again. If you could prove what you say, and you can't. You would not have to say "evidetnly."


Quote:
Circular argument. The question of whether we can believe what the gospels say is answered that we can because you believe what they say. However, the discrepancies and contradictions are so glaring (you chose to ignore luke refuting John when I put it to you) are clear evidence that they cannot be trusted. I have no doubt that those Gospel -writers - as Bible apologists do now - do not consider dishonesty in the cause of Religion is not 'bearing false witness'. In other words - lying for Jesus is not a sin.

You and the pagan web sites you have to use are so ignorant of the Bible, you think what can be explained is a contradiction.
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