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Old 05-27-2019, 06:20 AM
 
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You are just making yourself and your religion look absurd. You answer nothing, explain nothing and rebut nothing. You just say 'you don't understand'.
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:28 AM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,215,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
There is a not a single article in existence that proves that Ganesh, Zeus or Santa Claus is not real (especially if if any that try to are dismissed as 'having no proof'). So what can be proved or disproved is not the point, but where the weight of evidence lies.

I would remind you that I disproved John's wound in the side -claim. You had nothing to say by way of serious refutation.

But even that is not 'proof', because one could argue that it is John's word against the Synoptic account (which is really just one in three versions). I could argue that John - aside what look like very personal additions of his own - may be based on an original eyewitness account, as he claims. After reading Josephus on the power struggle between the Boethius clan (High priests) and James brother of Jesus (probably Jesus Damnaeus), the way Caiaphas and Annas (Patriarch of the Boethius clam, which Caiaphas had married into) treat Jesus looks a lot more convincing.

But then of course, that would mean that the Synoptics were incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
There is a not a single article in existence that proves that Ganesh, Zeus or Santa Claus is not real (especially if if any that try to are dismissed as 'having no proof'). So what can be proved or disproved is not the point, but where the weight of evidence lies.

That's the point---THERE IS NO EVIDENCE to support either position. We both accept what we believe by faith alone. the only difference is I admit it, you don't.


Quote:
I would remind you that I disproved John's wound in the side -claim. You had nothing to say by way of serious refutation.

You didn't disproved it because it can't be proved or disproved. Opinions do not disprove anything, and that is all you have.


Quote:
But even that is not 'proof', because one could argue that it is John's word against the Synoptic account (which is really just one in three versions). I could argue that John - aside what look like very personal additions of his own - may be based on an original eyewitness account, as he claims. After reading Josephus on the power struggle between the Boethius clan (High priests) and James brother of Jesus (probably Jesus Damnaeus), the way Caiaphas and Annas (Patriarch of the Boethius clam, which Caiaphas had married into) treat Jesus looks a lot more convincing.

But then of course, that would mean that the Synoptics were incorrect.

It is silly to say if something is not reported in another gospel, it must be wrong. You certainly have no evidence John added some personal verses. The OPINIONS expressed by secular writers in no way refutes what is in the gospels.
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:34 AM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
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Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
FACT: There isn’t a single article in existence that proves Jesus was real.

This brings us back to first principles of course. The claims of the Bible are fantastic and cannot be proven, so atheists are justified in withholding belief in those claims.

Of course they can and should. Especially in religious matters.. They just need to keep in mind that nothing in the Bible can be proven wrong also. Just keep an open mind.
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:46 AM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,215,461 times
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I would never waste my time trying to explain the following to omega because at this point I realize he's poured fast-setting concrete into his ear canals. But the point IS that Jesus is not a provable commodity, same as God. So we just go with a preponderance of the evidence. And the preponderance of evidence says that Jesus, if he existed, was just an ordinary man that the Greeks decided to mythologize and make into a god. That's where the evidence lies: that anonymous Greek writers writing the gospels some 75-100 years after this fellow got crucified took some tales of a Nazarene probably named Yeshua and turned them into fantastic exploits of a miracle-performing god who took on an earthly body, died on a hill as many dying/rising gods did back then, resurrected and ascended. You can find these stories in nearly all cultures of the Mediterranean: Zalmoxis in Thrace, Romulus in Rome, Inanna in Mesopotamia, Osiris in Egypt, Dionysus in Greece. Just add Jesus to the list. You won't find any actual evidence of Jesus in existence any more than you'll find evidence of all the preceding gods I just named. Like I said: Jesus has his roots in mythology. That's where the preponderance of evidence lies.

Before the concrete in your ears sets up, keep in mind that nothing you say can be proved and nothing I say can b e disproved.
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:48 AM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,215,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
You are just making yourself and your religion look absurd. You answer nothing, explain nothing and rebut nothing. You just say 'you don't understand'.

Only to non-believers and I am not concerned About their comments,
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Old 05-27-2019, 07:12 AM
 
13,457 posts, read 4,976,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
You are just making yourself and your religion look absurd. You answer nothing, explain nothing and rebut nothing. You just say 'you don't understand'.
lmao ... just like you do. Or, as the case may be, don't actually.

omego=trans
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Old 05-27-2019, 07:15 AM
 
13,457 posts, read 4,976,974 times
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Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
Of course they can and should. Especially in religious matters.. They just need to keep in mind that nothing in the Bible can be proven wrong also. Just keep an open mind.
there is no open mind with fundamentalist. they use gaps in knowledge to sway people. They don't list the facts and see what "stories" make the most sense.

Trans' sect of atheism is as guilty of this brain disconnect as any theist sect., well, because its people that cause trouble, not a book.
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Old 05-27-2019, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,929 posts, read 8,390,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
That's the point---THERE IS NO EVIDENCE to support either position. We both accept what we believe by faith alone. the only difference is I admit it, you don't.
This is a false equivalency.

First, I do not hold my atheist beliefs by faith. I hold them based upon the preponderance of the evidence. That isn’t proof, but it is a good reason.


The atheist position is much more justifiable as it does not make any positive claims and is in agreement with what we know of the universe. The Christian position makes claims that we know to be internally inconsistent and at odds with what we know of the universe.

Quote:
You didn't disproved it because it can't be proved or disproved. Opinions do not disprove anything, and that is all you have.
Actually, we have much more than opinion. We have science, history and logic as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
Of course they can and should. Especially in religious matters.. They just need to keep in mind that nothing in the Bible can be proven wrong also. Just keep an open mind.
Actually, many things in the Bible can be proven wrong. We know the earth is billions of years old, not a few thousand, we know the sequence of creation in the Bible is not accurate, we know there was no worldwide flood, we know the story of exodus is fictional, we know the gospels are internally inconsistent, we know the timeline of the gospels does not match with actual history.

I do keep an open mind, and if you or any other person were able to address these problems with the Bible, or with any other religion, I would change my belief system due to that evidence.

So far, despite participating in this forum, and taking other steps to engage with religious believers IRL, nobody has come even close to answering even the smallest of these objections.
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Old 05-27-2019, 08:00 AM
 
Location: USA
3,427 posts, read 1,256,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
Denying something is false is easy, but someone denying something they are ignorant of is the hard part. and does not make it false.
Which of us is ignorant? Several of us here have been supplying you with the facts. Facts which you seem to have been unaware of. And we did not make these facts up ourselves. These facts are well known and well established outside of Christian fundamentalist circles.

According to Acts, about six weeks after Jesus was executed his disciples began spreading the rumor that he had risen from the dead. Who saw the risen man? His disciples and ONLY his disciples! And where was the "risen" man now? Oh, he flew off up into the clouds. Who saw the "risen" man fly away? His disciples and ONLY his disciples!

So just what is your standard for what is realistically true, and what is realistically false?

Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
It is very doubtful you have ever attended a conservative Sunday school class at all, let alone long enough to know what they do. I know what I believe will be challenged, I welcome it. That is the only way the ignorance of Christianity and the Bible can be exposed.
Actually I was raised Pentecostal, which is a decidedly fundamentalist Christian faction. So I spent my fair share of time in Sunday school as a youngster. Admittedly that was a long time ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
My beliefs stand up perfectly by those who understand the Bible. To call someone's religion make believe, with proof is bigotry. I have noticed when some do no have the intellect to discuss the subject politely, they always resort to insults. Thanks
What causes you to conclude, or even suggest, that we are not familiar with the Bible? I have personally read the Bible cover to cover. And I took notes.

I have never been insulting, unless you simply consider the act of contradicting you to be insulting.

The beliefs held by you and those who share your beliefs stand up perfectly well just so long as you all rigidly maintain those beliefs without ever actually challenging any of them. Because if you actually challenge them, they fall apart like a cheap sweater. Which is why Christians hold up blind faith as if it were an actual virtue, instead of a path to simply closing one's eyes to reason and logic, and purposely CHOOSING rigid self delusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
Now consider this. Non-Christians in their ignorance , always use a brush way to wide. While there are some Christians who say Jesus will return soon, there is no Biblical support for that and most Christians do not believe it.
Mark 1:
[15]And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 9:
27] But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.


The early message of Christianity was that the kingdom of God was at hand NOW! But of course the world has continued on. The problem of the failure of the parousia, or second coming, to occur began to become a problem for early Christian evangelical efforts. Which is why 2 Peter was included in the canon of the NT by the Catholic church, even though 2 Peter was widely considered to be a forgery, even at that time.

2 Peter 3:
7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


So you see, Jesus never has to return AT ALL! The imperative now given to Christians is to simply maintain the faith and pass the belief from one generation to the next indefinitely. Of course each generation has supposed that they, certainly, would witness "the return." If not them, then certainly their children would witness it. Two thousand years of waiting in vain, AND YET NOTHING HAS BEEN LEARNED!

fool·ish
/ˈfo͞oliSH/
adjective
(of a person or action) lacking good sense or judgment; unwise.

synonyms: stupid, silly, idiotic, halfwitted, witless, brainless, mindless, thoughtless, imprudent, incautious, irresponsible, injudicious, indiscreet, unwise, unintelligent, unreasonable; ill-advised, ill-considered, impolitic, rash, reckless, foolhardy, lunatic; absurd, senseless, pointless, nonsensical, inane, fatuous, ridiculous, laughable, risible, derisible; informal - dumb, dim, dimwitted, dopey, gormless, damfool, half-baked, harebrained, crackbrained, peabrained, wooden-headed, thickheaded, nutty, mad, crazy, dotty, batty, dippy, cuckoo, screwy, wacky; informal - barmy, daft; informal - glaikit; informal -dumb-ass, chowderheaded; informal - dotish.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...49._26xFqkPqiA

Anyone can be fooled. Continuing to be fooled for two thousand years however obliterates simple foolishness. Being fooled for two thousand years represents "ridiculous, laughable, risible, derisible; dumb, dim, dimwitted, dopey, gormless, damfool, half-baked, harebrained, crackbrained, peabrained, wooden-headed, thickheaded," all rolled into one.
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Old 05-27-2019, 08:14 AM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,723 posts, read 1,215,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
there is no open mind with fundamentalist. they use gaps in knowledge to sway people. They don't list the facts and see what "stories" make the most sense.

We are as open minded as you skeptics are. What gaps of knowledge do we use---what fact do we not list---what determines if a story makes the most sense?


Quote:
Trans' sect of atheism is as guilty of this brain disconnect as any theist sect., well, because its people that cause trouble, not a book.

Agreed.
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