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Old 04-10-2019, 03:18 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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I've stated numerous times that atheists/skeptics/agnostics don't have to lie to alert novices to Christianity's shady past. All they have to do is tell the truth. It's the Christians who have to tell lies to defend their faith and you see plenty of that going on in here all the time. Here are 10 lies Christians tell regularly in an effort to prop up their failing religion. As the the Internet pulls back the covers on Christianity's dubious founding, Christianity will continue to flounder in the 1st world and Jesus, if he is really the Son of God, will continue to do nothing to stop it.

#1. The Bible contains no contradictions. Rubbish! It is loaded with thousands of contradictions. Apologists argue ALL these errors can be explained. Another lie. They cannot all be explained. Like this one, I suppose:

Are we saved through works?

  • Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
  • Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore NO flesh be justified by the deeds of the law there shall t."
  • Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
VS.

  • James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man IS justified, and not by faith only."
  • Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him "Keep the commandments."
The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

#2.
Jesus is well-represented in secular history. Rubbish! Jesus is not mentioned in secular history at all. There is a very controversial passage from Josephus that mentions a "Jesus who is called Christ" supposedly written in 96 CE but most scholars believe it was inserted into the Josephus text by Eusebius, a lackey for Emperor Constantine to give Jesus more credibility as a historical figure. Other than that there are a few mentions of "Chrestians" in the 2nd century and a mention of "Chrestus" by Tacitus in 117 CE. But that's it. No "Jesus the Christ".

#3. There is more proof for Jesus than Julius Caesar. Rubbish! We have Caesar's own words in his treatise, "The Gallic Wars". We have busts of Caesar. We have coins with Caesar's image on them. We have reliefs of Caesar in Roman monuments. We have NOTHING for Jesus.

#4. The apostles died for their faith. Rubbish! We haven't a single mention of any of the apostles anywhere outside the Bible. For all practical purposes the apostles never existed.

#5. Jesus is prophesied in the Old Testament. Rubbish! Jesus isn't mentioned once in the Old Testament. Apologists try to attach obscure Old Testament passages to Jesus to make it appear that way, but none of them talks about Jesus. A few:

...that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene" (Matthew 2:23).

There is no such prophecy in any Jewish scripture

And this:

... that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son. (Matthew 2:15) The prophecy is to be found in Hosea 11:1: "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

So Israel is the child God called out of Egypt, not Jesus. But apologists always use their backup excuse, "These are all double prophecies". What about triple and quadruple prophecies?

http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/cd0_prophesy.htm

#6. Gospels were written by eyewitnesses to Jesus. Rubbish! The gospels were all written by literate anonymous Greek scholars 50 to 100 years after Jesus' death.

Quote:
All four are anonymous (the modern names were added in the 2nd century), and it is almost certain that none were written by an eyewitness."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel

#7. God answers prayers. Rubbish! Study after study done by reputable research groups proves prayer has no effect on the outcome of a patient's health crisis.
Quote:
Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/h...of-prayer.html

We currently have an entirely separate thread that examines this topic in detail.

#8. Jesus never made a failed prophecy. Rubbish! On no less than four occasions in the gospels Jesus inaccurately predicted he would return within the lifetime of his disciples. Here they are:

a.“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

b.Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24: 25-34)

c.Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.“” (Matthew 26: 63, 64)

d.When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.’”(Matthew 10:23)

#9. Jesus' life was not based on earlier dying/rising gods Rubbish! On the Rank/Raglan mythotype scale

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rank%E...glan_mythotype

Jesus scores 91% (20 of 22 points) which puts him in such illustrious company as Aeneas, Arthur, Buddha, Gilgamesh, Heracles, Lohengrin, Odysseus, Oedipus, Perseus, Romulus, Siegfried

Lord Raglan, in 1936, developed a 22-point myth-ritualist Hero archetype to account for common patterns across Indo-European cultures for Hero traditions.
  1. Mother is a royal virgin
  2. Father is a king
  3. Father often a near relative to mother
  4. Unusual conception
  5. Hero reputed to be son of god
  6. Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
  7. Hero spirited away as a child
  8. Reared by foster parents in a far country
  9. No details of childhood
  10. Returns or goes to future kingdom
  11. Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
  12. Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
  13. Becomes king
  14. For a time he reigns uneventfully
  15. He prescribes laws
  16. Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
  17. Driven from throne and city
  18. Meets with mysterious death
  19. Often at the top of a hill
  20. His children, if any, do not succeed him
  21. His body is not buried
  22. Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs
Read through these 22 points that characterize a mythical hero and see how many can easily be identified as describing Jesus as found in the gospels.

10. Jesus said he was God in the 4 gospels. Rubbish! Jesus is clearly portrayed as "The Holy one of God" and the "Son of man" but NOT God in Mark's gospel. In Matthew and Luke Jesus is portrayed as the "son of God" indicating an elevation to a demi-god. Finally in John we finally see Jesus fully evolved into God status with "Before Abraham was, I AM" The reason I have read is that the pagans the Christian churchmen were trying to convert wanted a god to worship and Mark's gospel did not show Jesus as a god but as man capable of weakness such as in
Mark 1:24, "He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them." So they turned Jesus into a god when they wrote John's gospel.

Christians will find it increasingly difficult to bluff skeptics with their lies to overcome these serious problems with their faith. Please feel free to add to the list. I know we can raise the number of untruths up to 100 with no difficulty.

As I said before, I don't hate Christianity. I merely want its dirty linens exposed so people contemplating joining it have full disclosure about the faith before they join.



Last edited by thrillobyte; 04-10-2019 at 04:12 PM..
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Old 04-10-2019, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,661 posts, read 2,865,682 times
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Quote:
#3. There is more proof for Jesus than Julius Caesar. Rubbish! We have Caesar's own words in his treatise, "The Gallic Wars". We have busts of Caesar. We have coins with Caesar's image on them. We have reliefs of Caesar in Roman monuments. We have NOTHING for Jesus.
Well actually, we have the Shroud of Turin bearing the image of Jesus - even if it was only created in the 14th century.

And if Jesus became eternal god and creator in 2 BC then so can the shroud be backdated to whenever because it too is eternal. It's not rocket science, you know. In fact - it's not science!

Oh yeah, the other trick he pulled is to become both his father and his father his son. Not sure where the holy ghost fits in. I remember my two uncles would always say from the pulpit "God the father, god the son and god the holy ghost". They were great guys actually. I was very fond of them both.
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Old 04-10-2019, 05:20 PM
 
8,818 posts, read 5,119,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
Well actually, we have the Shroud of Turin bearing the image of Jesus - even if it was only created in the 14th century.
Plus his face shows up "miraculously" in pancakes, root vegetables, etc.
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Old 04-10-2019, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,437 posts, read 10,385,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
[font=arial][color=black][font=arial][color=black][font=arial][color=black][font=arial][color=black]I've stated numerous times that atheists/skeptics/agnostics don't have to lie to alert novices to Christianity's shady past. ...
I don't understand what the "forced" part is.
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Old 04-10-2019, 08:40 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I don't understand what the "forced" part is.
Well, I say, "Jesus is not prophesied in the Old Testament" and a Christian either has to agree with me, "Yep, you're right. All that baloney about Jesus being prophesied in the Old Testament proves he was God incarnate is just that--baloney". Or, in order to act in the role of an apologist defending his faith, he is "forced" to contradict my statement with a lie, "That's not true. Jesus was prophesied over 350 times in the Old Testament, proving he was God before being incarnated as Jesus." That's a lie, of course. I provided two examples. Here's another:

"Now all this that is, all this dreaming and this pregnancy was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the Prophet, saying, Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted, is, God with us." Isaiah 7:14,
Matthew 1:23

Real explanation:

Quote:
the child of which Isaiah speaks was his own child, with which his wife or his mistress was then pregnant; for he says in the next chapter (Is. vii, 2), "And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah; and I went unto the prophetess, and she conceived and bear a son;" and he says, at verse 18 of the same chapter, "Behold I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel."
A little context demonstrates the child is not Jesus born 700 years into the future but a sign in the present to King Ahaz that he would win an upcoming battle.

Here's the rest of the verse supposedly about Jesus:

Quote:
butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good - for before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, [but before this] the land which thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings"
In other words, Ahaz had two kingdoms marching against him and the child was a sign to him that God would make him victorious against his two enemies.

Matthew, of course tells the reader none of this and for 2000 years 99.999% of Christians have been taught the child is Jesus at Christmas time.

Pathetic lie, but a lie nonetheless. Any skeptic could take every single one of those 350 so-called "prophecies" of Jesus and with careful exegesis, show they have nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus.

Once again, to drive home the point: I am telling the truth. The Christian is forced to lie.
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Old 04-10-2019, 09:13 PM
 
40,035 posts, read 26,715,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Well, I say, "Jesus is not prophesied in the Old Testament" and a Christian either has to agree with me, "Yep, you're right. All that baloney about Jesus being prophesied in the Old Testament proves he was God incarnate is just that--baloney". Or, in order to act in the role of an apologist defending his faith, he is "forced" to contradict my statement with a lie, "That's not true. Jesus was prophesied over 350 times in the Old Testament, proving he was God before being incarnated as Jesus." That's a lie, of course. I provided two examples. Here's another:

"Now all this that is, all this dreaming and this pregnancy was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the Prophet, saying, Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted, is, God with us." Isaiah 7:14,
Matthew 1:23

Real explanation:

A little context demonstrates the child is not Jesus born 700 years into the future but a sign in the present to King Ahaz that he would win an upcoming battle.

Here's the rest of the verse supposedly about Jesus:

In other words, Ahaz had two kingdoms marching against him and the child was a sign to him that God would make him victorious against his two enemies.

Matthew, of course tells the reader none of this and for 2000 years 99.999% of Christians have been taught the child is Jesus at Christmas time.

Pathetic lie, but a lie nonetheless. Any skeptic could take every single one of those 350 so-called "prophecies" of Jesus and with careful exegesis, show they have nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus.

Once again, to drive home the point: I am telling the truth. The Christian is forced to lie.
::Sigh:: Prophecy is not decided by those who receive it, Thrill. It is only revealed and exposed by the events that occur. It is silly to think that someone would receive inspiration and record it for future generations KNOWING what it would foretell some 700-800 years later. You also mix personal stories that happen to appear in the same narratives as if they determine what in the narrative is inspired prophecy and what is not which is also silly. Only time reveals what is prophetic and what is not.
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Old 04-10-2019, 09:28 PM
 
39,014 posts, read 10,812,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
::Sigh:: Prophecy is not decided by those who receive it, Thrill. It is only revealed and exposed by the events that occur. It is silly to think that someone would receive inspiration and record it for future generations KNOWING what it would foretell some 700-800 years later. You also mix personal stories that happen to appear in the same narratives as if they determine what in the narrative is inspired prophecy and what is not which is also silly. Only time reveals what is prophetic and what is not.
Unfortunately, prophecy - resolution by that method falls into the same trap as 'answered prayer'. Interpreting the events to make it look like prophecy coming true (the founding of the State os Israel is a Christian prophecy favourite), taking vague prophecies as definite (earthquakes, famines, wars and rumours of wars is -or was- another) and counting the hits and the misses ....well, let's wait rather the Christian equivalent of expecting science to come up with an explanation in time, in the meantime refusing to accept that it's God doing it. Christian apologists complain about that, so why shouldn't we?
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Old 04-10-2019, 09:44 PM
 
40,035 posts, read 26,715,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
::Sigh:: Prophecy is not decided by those who receive it, Thrill. It is only revealed and exposed by the events that occur. It is silly to think that someone would receive inspiration and record it for future generations KNOWING what it would foretell some 700-800 years later. You also mix personal stories that happen to appear in the same narratives as if they determine what in the narrative is inspired prophecy and what is not which is also silly. Only time reveals what is prophetic and what is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Unfortunately, prophecy - resolution by that method falls into the same trap as 'answered prayer'. Interpreting the events to make it look like prophecy coming true (the founding of the State of Israel is a Christian prophecy favourite), taking vague prophecies as definite (earthquakes, famines, wars, and rumours of wars is -or was- another) and counting the hits and the misses ....well, let's wait rather the Christian equivalent of expecting science to come up with an explanation in time, in the meantime refusing to accept that it's God doing it. Christian apologists complain about that, so why shouldn't we?
We will always choose to accept what most resonates with us, Arq. The Israelites had no clue what the Prophets were babbling about. They just knew they were Prophets of God. The only way they had to know what out of the babble was prophetic was to compare events to it and see if there was any confirmation. It will always be thus, Arq. Inspirations from God do not come with instructions on how to interpret them. You do not believe there is any such inspiration. I do because I encountered the consciousness that is the source of them. It is unreasonable to conclude that the inspirations stopped over 2000+ years ago but the willingness of the people to accept such inspirations has. I am saddened that so few people seem open to or sensitive to that inner consciousness that I KNOW is available within in each of us.
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Old 04-10-2019, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,256 posts, read 7,644,495 times
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Well, Trans, make that "defend their religion" and I won't object much, understanding that "religion" is about the set of doctrines and practices that various denominations have set up about the PERSON of Jesus as opposed to the message of living in community with God and man that He taught. Then I would just explain that the "works/faith" dichotomy is just about the fact that a commitment to a way of living entails action though it is not the actions earning anything, but demonstrating that commitment. The rest is just what religion constructors deemed necessary to their construct.
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Old 04-11-2019, 02:45 AM
 
Location: US
27,953 posts, read 15,035,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Well, I say, "Jesus is not prophesied in the Old Testament" and a Christian either has to agree with me, "Yep, you're right. All that baloney about Jesus being prophesied in the Old Testament proves he was God incarnate is just that--baloney". Or, in order to act in the role of an apologist defending his faith, he is "forced" to contradict my statement with a lie, "That's not true. Jesus was prophesied over 350 times in the Old Testament, proving he was God before being incarnated as Jesus." That's a lie, of course. I provided two examples. Here's another:

"Now all this that is, all this dreaming and this pregnancy was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the Prophet, saying, Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted, is, God with us." Isaiah 7:14,
Matthew 1:23

Real explanation:

A little context demonstrates the child is not Jesus born 700 years into the future but a sign in the present to King Ahaz that he would win an upcoming battle.

Here's the rest of the verse supposedly about Jesus:

In other words, Ahaz had two kingdoms marching against him and the child was a sign to him that God would make him victorious against his two enemies.

Matthew, of course tells the reader none of this and for 2000 years 99.999% of Christians have been taught the child is Jesus at Christmas time.

Pathetic lie, but a lie nonetheless. Any skeptic could take every single one of those 350 so-called "prophecies" of Jesus and with careful exegesis, show they have nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus.

Once again, to drive home the point: I am telling the truth. The Christian is forced to lie.
So could a Jew...
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