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Old 04-23-2019, 02:09 PM
 
20 posts, read 4,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheuss View Post
A church that I've been attending makes people sign paperwork that describes their members are expected to pay 10% of their income as tithe.

So if a member pays tithe regularly but does not actually pay 10%. Can that church sue them for the unpaid tithe say a year later? This question started dancing around my head as I observed that new members were being made to sign paperwork.

I would run away as fast as I could from that church. Seriously, if anyone signs "paperwork" that indicates that they agree to pay these funds without fail, I would say that it would hold water if the church were to take legal steps. The big question is, Will that church have the biggest balls to do so? I doubt it. They may only be taking this step to use it as a threat. It is very sad, sick, and unfortunate that this is being done but if people are silly enough to sign the paperwork and attend the church....what in the world does that say about them?
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:15 PM
 
12,688 posts, read 4,814,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheuss View Post
A church that I've been attending makes people sign paperwork that describes their members are expected to pay 10% of their income as tithe.

So if a member pays tithe regularly but does not actually pay 10%. Can that church sue them for the unpaid tithe say a year later? This question started dancing around my head as I observed that new members were being made to sign paperwork.
people will sue for all sorts of strange things things. Like sue the church for money paid under false pretense.
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Old 04-23-2019, 05:23 PM
 
5,851 posts, read 1,650,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheuss View Post
A church that I've been attending makes people sign paperwork that describes their members are expected to pay 10% of their income as tithe.

So if a member pays tithe regularly but does not actually pay 10%. Can that church sue them for the unpaid tithe say a year later? This question started dancing around my head as I observed that new members were being made to sign paperwork.
If your church tells you that you must pay any certain amount, my suggestion is to run away from it. Tithing is not a Biblical concept.
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Old 04-23-2019, 05:24 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,956 posts, read 4,687,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheuss View Post
A church that I've been attending makes people sign paperwork that describes their members are expected to pay 10% of their income as tithe.

So if a member pays tithe regularly but does not actually pay 10%. Can that church sue them for the unpaid tithe say a year later? This question started dancing around my head as I observed that new members were being made to sign paperwork.
A contract has to be legally binding. If they didn't have lawyers write up the contract, I doubt any judge would consider it a truly binding legal contract.

It would ultimately be up to the judge(s) to decide whether this contract is legally binding or not.

Furthermore, Paul says you don't have to tithe like Jews used to tithe. "free-will donations from the heart" were more important to him because they were often expected to be more (does God deserve 9%, 11% 90% or 110%?)
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,496 posts, read 14,054,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheuss View Post
A church that I've been attending makes people sign paperwork that describes their members are expected to pay 10% of their income as tithe.

So if a member pays tithe regularly but does not actually pay 10%. Can that church sue them for the unpaid tithe say a year later? This question started dancing around my head as I observed that new members were being made to sign paperwork.
Is it in the form of a contract?

I'm not talking about whether it "looks" like a contract, I'm talking about whether it actually is a contract.

For a contract, you need a "meeting of the minds" to form the agreement and then consideration, or an exchange. The exchange need not be anything or anything of value, and can be a detriment.

For example, I write "I will give Morpheuss $100,000 if he agrees to refrain from consuming alcoholic beverages for one year."

If you signed it, that's a valid contract, and if you can prove you did not consume alcoholic beverages during the course of a year, I owe you $100,000 and you can sue me for judgement if I welsh and refuse to pay.

Tithing is consideration on your part, but what are you getting in return?

Continued participation in the church might be valid consideration. The Yahweh-Jesus-Ghosty-Thing withholding punishment from you might also be argued as valid consideration, but then if you suffered a mishap that would refute that.

Also, note that both parties do not have to sign the contract. In the example above, if I signed the contract but you didn't, you have no claim against me, but if you sign the contract and I don't, you would have a valid claim, because I proffered the contract to you.

So, the fact that you sign it, but no church official does, it doesn't mean it's invalid.

Objectively-speaking, you should probably seek out another church for membership.

Perhaps you're not aware, but no one ever went to church.

Going to church is a recent phenomenon in Western civilization.

It began during the Reformation, when people congregated -- hence congregations -- to discuss the ideas being disseminated by Luther, Calvin and others.

Later, people began congregating weekly, and then much later, church services sprang out of that.

Before the Reformation, nobody went to church. All those huge medieval cathedrals? Those were monuments to god and to make the popes and cardinals and bishops feel good about themselves.

They were used for coronations, weddings, baptisms and death, but only if you were a greater or lesser noble, or a part of the landed gentry, or a free man. If you were a serf or a slave, nobody gave a damn if you died.
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:05 PM
 
10,294 posts, read 12,598,889 times
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I've never heard of anything this crazy, but it wouldn't surprise me. I've never thought it was important to "join" a church officially. If a church ever asked me to join I would tell them where they could stick their application papers, which would not be a kind thing to post here.

Anyway, it's just wrong to demand money, especially since they often demand unpaid work which they will classify as "service" to God. This kind of church sounds like a cult. There are many similar ones under the Christian label who often demand money and service from their members.
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,717 posts, read 8,244,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
A contract has to be legally binding. If they didn't have lawyers write up the contract, I doubt any judge would consider it a truly binding legal contract.

It would ultimately be up to the judge(s) to decide whether this contract is legally binding or not.
A contract does need to be legally binding, but you do not need to have a lawyer draft it. Obviously a lawyer would avoid drafting it in such a way as to make it self-contradictory and immediately void, but if you have a simple, clear agreement that provides consideration (as Mircea above accurately notes) to both parties, you most likely have a valid contract.
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:40 PM
 
999 posts, read 565,754 times
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Leave now. No place called a "Church" should force no one to give. It is a place of worship for all.
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:44 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,956 posts, read 4,687,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
A contract does need to be legally binding, but you do not need to have a lawyer draft it. Obviously a lawyer would avoid drafting it in such a way as to make it self-contradictory and immediately void, but if you have a simple, clear agreement that provides consideration (as Mircea above accurately notes) to both parties, you most likely have a valid contract.
I only said lawyers draft it because I doubt many would have the ability to write up a clear, "simple" non-interpretable, "with considerations to both parties"contracts that covers all the bases without a good lawyer.

Anything "illegal" or "unreasonable" in it is often enough to make it void in whole, but that often depends on the State law, not often the Federal.

For example, if one 18-year-old sign contracts about paying another 18-year-old a percentage of their income, there is no "damage" to prove if one negates on the contract. Thus no "consideration of both parties."

And what are the Churches selling for the price of a tithe? Nothing provable. That is enough to legally repudiate a contract. (see UCC 2-609(1))

Furthermore, to be an enforceable contract, the exchange would need to be taxed. I could not see a set of State Judges being so dumb as to enforce contracts that don't pay them, unless they see the "damage" of breaking such a contract as a grave threat to the under-the-table "social stability" which is often so important to them (since they make the big bucks and have great government-health-insurance and pension plans and investments, etc).

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 04-23-2019 at 09:08 PM..
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Old 04-23-2019, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,717 posts, read 8,244,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
I only said lawyers draft it because I doubt many would have the ability to write up a clear, "simple" non-interpretable, "with considerations to both parties"contracts that covers all the bases without a good lawyer.

Anything "illegal" or "unreasonable" in it is often enough to make it void in whole, but that often depends on the State law, not often the Federal.
True, some things will render a contract void. You do not need a good lawyer to write a valid contract, you merely need a competent layperson, or a mediocre lawyer. Maybe the church in the OP engaged a lawyer to draft their tithing contract?


Quote:
And what are the Churches selling for the price of a tithe? Nothing provable. That is enough to legally repudiate a contract. (see UCC 2-609(1))
Under that theory, therapists could not write contracts for services. I am sure that the contract could cite something provable, such as a seat on a church committee, a subscription to the newsletter, the right to one of the front pews, a parking space, access to the pastor for pastoral services, etc. I can come up with many other options without going to intercessory prayer, although it might be enough to contract for prayer services.

Quote:
Furthermore, to be an enforceable contract, the exchange would need to be taxed. I could not see a set of State Judges being so dumb as to enforce contracts that don't pay them, unless they see the "damage" of breaking such a contract as a grave threat to the under-the-table "social stability" which is often so important to them (since they make the big bucks and have great government-health-insurance and pension plans and investments, etc).
What? Contracts do not need to be taxed. I have worked for many educational institutions that are tax exempt, and we can legally contract for services and provide services, with no tax on the transaction. This is something that you are pulling out of a dark orifice.
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