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Old 04-24-2008, 09:07 PM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,933,629 times
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Yah, following the evidence is the way to go. I'd say that its not really a problem of "interpreting" the evidence because there aren't that many ways to interpret a fingerprint, a tree with 1/32 its original carbon 14 content or a skull with the back broken and remains of a spearhead found inside. The problem is rather with pressumposing something(ie that the flood happened) and then setting out to prove this true. Its just shoddy thinking which will always give out the answer you desire and anyways why the hell do we need to resort to it if the event suposely happened in the first place? Its basically saying that the evidence lies to us
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Old 04-25-2008, 07:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
Nikk... I commend you. You keep at it like you'll eventually change their minds. They won't. They'll never see things from our point of view (YEC) no matter what. It's not a question of evidence. I've said before and I'll say it again, we have the same evidence. It's the interpretation of that evidence that differs. It's not a matter of faith. Their positions take just as much faith as ours does. It's a matter of will.
That's not exactly true. I've asked Nikk to describe the flood model and show how that model's predictions match the evidence we find in the real world. So far, the only response I've gotten is a baseless claim that there's a centuries-old world-wide conspiracy to suppress flood geology. No hint of a model, no explanation of how the evidence fits the model, and no examples of anyone using the model to generate practical results.

It's not a question of faith in two equal models, it's a question of there being one well-tested and used scientific model that matches the evidence and another side that doesn't even have a hypothesis.

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I could sit here and refute all their excuses not to believe, but I've already done that before.
Yeah, and my dad could beat up your dad.

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They keep bringing up the same tired arguments that have been explained and refuted time and again.
Explain why conventional geology is used by the petroleum industry to find oil if the theories behind modern geology have been refuted. Is the oil industry part of the grand conspiracy against modernist American Protestant Christianity along will all the world's scientists?
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:07 AM
 
Location: PA
2,595 posts, read 4,433,800 times
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
How do creationists explain away the huge deposits of fossil fuels that drive the world's economy...Surely the coal, oil and gas weren't deposited in just a few thousand years.
Yes they were. Millions of years are not required to produce oil, or fossils, or coal.

Oil is produced using Turkey ofal in America. The process takes two weeks. Fossils have been shown to be made in less than 40 years in nature.

The fact is, it just requires the right conditions for these things to be made. The conditions are not uncommon to anywhere on the earth.
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:15 AM
 
Location: PA
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Originally Posted by Capt. Dan View Post
Even if the entire earth was of level elevation, as was theorized by a previous poster, there would still be geologic evidence of a worldwide flood. evidence left in strata at places like the Grand Canyon.The flood story, just like the Creation story, are stories brought back to places like Judea by Jewish priests from thier years in captivity in other places like Babylon. These stories have been told, adapted to suit various cultures and were used to explain human existance to peoples who had no education and easily bought into irrational explanations.
This is your idea of the histories in the bible. The truth is more closer to the fact that these things were written down by Adam and his decendants. Noah took these text with him into the Ark. His son Shem or Melchisedek gave a copy to Abraham. The text went with Abraham into Egypt and out of Egypt with Moses. Moses compiled the Text into what we now know as Genesis.

So Genesis is an account of the begining of history by the men who were there. This is called the Tablet Theory of Genesis.
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:20 AM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,933,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
Yes they were. Millions of years are not required to produce oil, or fossils, or coal.

Oil is produced using Turkey ofal in America. The process takes two weeks. Fossils have been shown to be made in less than 40 years in nature.

The fact is, it just requires the right conditions for these things to be made. The conditions are not uncommon to anywhere on the earth.
Your ideas are all over the place and you are digging yourself deeper into the hole you've made by trying to find any excuse to make your unsuported idea any more plausible:

Thermal depolymerization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
In the method used by CWT, the water improves the heating process and contributes hydrogen to the reactions.
In the CWT process,[9] the feedstock material is first ground into small chunks, and mixed with water if it is especially dry. It is then fed into a reaction chamber where it is heated to around 250 °C and subjected to 600 psi (4 MPa) for approximately 15 minutes, after which the pressure is rapidly released to boil off most of the water. The result is a mix of crude hydrocarbons and solid minerals, which are separated out. The hydrocarbons are sent to a second-stage reactor where they are heated to 500 °C, further breaking down the longer chains, and the resulting mix of hydrocarbons is then distilled in a manner similar to conventional oil refining.
This is simply impossible with 6.75 meters of water so go ahead and exclaim "deuz ex machina" rather than pretend your ideas are anything but blind faith
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:22 AM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,933,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
This is your idea of the histories in the bible. The truth is more closer to the fact that these things were written down by Adam and his decendants. Noah took these text with him into the Ark. His son Shem or Melchisedek gave a copy to Abraham. The text went with Abraham into Egypt and out of Egypt with Moses. Moses compiled the Text into what we now know as Genesis.

So Genesis is an account of the begining of history by the men who were there. This is called the Tablet Theory of Genesis.
which makes no sense considering that the bible is written in the third person. I find it less insane to believe that another person had this revealed by the holy spirit or that the events were just made up.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:04 AM
 
Location: PA
2,595 posts, read 4,433,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
Nikk... I commend you. You keep at it like you'll eventually change their minds. They won't. They'll never see things from our point of view (YEC) no matter what. It's not a question of evidence. I've said before and I'll say it again, we have the same evidence. It's the interpretation of that evidence that differs. It's not a matter of faith. Their positions take just as much faith as ours does. It's a matter of will.

Our will is conformed to God. Our eyes, hearts and minds have been opened by Him. We understand and we know what the truth is. Their eyes and hearts and minds are closed and will remain closed because of their will. If they admit that any tiny part of what we say is true, then they'd have to begin to admit there is a God who owns them and can tell them how to live. They'll never let that happen because it's a matter of their will.

I could sit here and refute all their excuses not to believe, but I've already done that before. I've explained the YEC position before. I'm done talking. They don't even acknowledge what's been said to them. They keep bringing up the same tired arguments that have been explained and refuted time and again. All I can do is present the information for others to read. If they accept it or not is no longer my concern. They will have to answer one day and pay the price God demands of everyone. The only difference is my debt has been paid in full, covered by Jesus. How will they pay?
I agree.

I have tried to make it clear, but they do not want to see it.

Yes, the mountains were high at the time of Noah. This matches scripture. No, they are not the same height as the mountains today.

The water that we find in the oceans is sufficient to cover the earth and high mountains of the time of Noah. Since we do not have an actual hight from the text we can say the maximum water height less 5 cubits will give us the hight of the original mountains.

The entire geological column is the evidence for the Flood of Noah's time. Any studies done of the geological column were done on this evidence so any geological content deduced is deduced from the Flood evidence.

There are many sorting method's becasue of the catastrophic flood. These various sorting method plus post flood flooding and other geological activities like volcanic have given us the geological column of today. Animals were buried in zones of climate and habitat rather than by any epocs of time.

The flood occured only thousands of years ago and the formation of fossils to oil to dimonds is easily possible in this amount of time.

Radioisotopic dating methods are faulty because they are a guess at the original content of the sample. Each sample requires a piece of paper stating which layer it came from so the technician can correctly identify the period that the sample is supposed to be from. These layers have already been assigned a date, so no deviation is allowed.

Many scientist want to do good science however historical science is not applied science. Applied science is the science that puts man on the moon and cures diseases. Historical science is all that guess stuff and sounds like: "we believe this happened..." or "man must have evolved like this..." or "This is one possible outcome...." The text of these documents are flooded with questions than accual facts. That is why evolution itself is evolving. But it will never change to include a creation by a creator. This is because no matter how unscientific the science community has set their belief system to only include humanistic matterialism and not to allow a devine "foot in the door".

Yet science itself is only reasonable when you begin with a creator. Why does science even work or why does the universe obey any laws. In an evolutionary system there is no reason for anyone to expect this world to exist let alone make sense to the human mind. If we have evolved how do we know that our minds have evolve correctly. Is morals the mere action of elections in our synapse or is there a reality to truth. From a Creationist point of view these questions are answered. Creationist scientist are the true scientists because our world view gives reason for the universe and why it is. The world makes sense in our frame work. The study of the world around us lets us see the actions of the creator. That is why modern science was developed by men who believed in a creator like Newton.

So, shall we stop talking if someone asks a question? No, for how shall they hear unless someone tells them. And who will tell them but the one who is sent. In that day they will stand before their creator and each will give an account of what they have done. I will stand and say that I have said what I was told. Did not Jesus say only those things that heard the father say. Jesus was the one who confirmed Genesis when he said "They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all." Luke 17:27. So this is not my word but his.

These questions from the OP are not difficult questions, because they are answered in the text. It is just that they do not want to hear us or believe the account of the text itself.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:12 AM
 
Location: PA
2,595 posts, read 4,433,800 times
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Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
Your ideas are all over the place and you are digging yourself deeper into the hole you've made by trying to find any excuse to make your unsuported idea any more plausible:

Thermal depolymerization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



This is simply impossible with 6.75 meters of water so go ahead and exclaim "deuz ex machina" rather than pretend your ideas are anything but blind faith
I don't think you understand the term "Deuz ex machina". It was a literary device to quickly rap up a story during greek times by throwing in a god like zeus at the end who made everything all right. The philosopers of the time disliked this and wanted the story to extend the belief of the viewer that the created world of say a book or play resolved itself internally.

Unlike a greek play, this world began with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". God started this story or history of man. He has been intimately involved the entire time and has even given us a redemption plan internal to this story. The book even includes us. So, when we say God did this it is not some alien fix, but an internal explanation to the truth of our reality.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:50 AM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,933,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
I don't think you understand the term "Deuz ex machina". It was a literary device to quickly rap up a story during greek times by throwing in a god like zeus at the end who made everything all right.
The philosopers of the time disliked this and wanted the story to extend the belief of the viewer that the created world of say a book or play resolved itself internally.
Thats exactly what ive been seeing happening here. Every time we see something impossible, it is explained away by god and miracles. Proof of this comes in the footnotes of ILNC's bible:

Quote:
I also came across this statement in the foot notes of my bible: God took care of the details while Noah was doing his part by building the boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
Unlike a greek play, this world began with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". God started this story or history of man. He has been intimately involved the entire time and has even given us a redemption plan internal to this story. The book even includes us. So, when we say God did this it is not some alien fix, but an internal explanation to the truth of our reality.
Which basically means: "I love the story". I'm sorry but a "Deuz ex machina" is a "Deuz ex machina" no matter how meaningful the story is to you. I'm sorry but your own subjective reasoning doesn't convince me. I can literally find a thousand muslims who will make similar arguments for the Qu'ran or any other holy book relating to their faith for that matter.

Edit: Oh and btw, you haven't explained how 6.75 meters of water can cause thermal depolymerization
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Old 04-25-2008, 12:32 PM
 
Location: PA
2,595 posts, read 4,433,800 times
Reputation: 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
Your ideas are all over the place and you are digging yourself deeper into the hole you've made by trying to find any excuse to make your unsuported idea any more plausible:

Thermal depolymerization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



This is simply impossible with 6.75 meters of water so go ahead and exclaim "deuz ex machina" rather than pretend your ideas are anything but blind faith
So you can understand this method which is used to produce oil on a production line in America. With that, to give you what I think is a basic method for how this could have happened in nature.

The global flood of Noah's time was catastrophic. This event cause masses of plant matterial and Animal remains to be buried under ton's of Aqueous born sediment. This is considered the best method for producing a fossil. Some of the matterial found locations that were cooler and the minerals from the strata migrated into the remains via Osmosis. The remains were kept from decay by oxygen by the rapid burial of tons of matterial quickly above. Other areas experience higher levels of heat. This combined with the the plant matterial producing coal beds and in some areas oil deposits. When we tap into these coal beds we often find tree trunks protruding through multiple layers. This is consistent with a creation models and is inconsistant with an evolutionary model. With an evolutionary model each strata is a different epoc of time. Which means that if we look at the line between the two strata, there should be some errosion on the fossil tree trunk that passes through the layers to show how there was even a minor ammount of time involved. When we look however this errosion is missing.

This is my explanation of how it happened it is not the bibles. It is not Christian's explanation. I have thought about it and it is mine.

The bible explained how the events occured as a history. We can look at the evidence today and see if it is possible. Sometimes the evidence reveals something about the events that we would never have thought of before, so there is nothing wrong when examining the evidence.

The fact that I start from a presupposition that there is a God and that the bible is the true word of God is not wrong. Many scientist begin with the presupposition that there is no God. Or that evolution is the only explanation for the matterial evidence seen in the world. They begin with this axiom based on belief first, not that they discovered it out there. As human we have to realize that we all start from axioms which are basic truths that we don't doubt but accept as truth.
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