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Old 05-09-2019, 02:02 PM
 
10,527 posts, read 15,586,917 times
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Well, OP, it is pretty simple, actually. Have you ever watched how thousands of people are being touched by a single Guru, a true Master? Plenty of videos of that everywhere. Literally, tens of thousands. Don't even need to get close to Him, just be present.
That is the power of the true Master.
That was the power of one they later named Jesus.

Just like that was the power of Gautam Buddha or any other known spiritual leader of similar grandeur.

When people get touched that way, they change instantly.



That is the good news. In my opinion, the bad news is what followed after. As Master was gone, so was the magic of his presence. Yet, there were many now who believed and, yet even some who saw how to prosper off that faith. So what was once the touch of god, as god works through such Masters, became path to religion.

That Christianity became promoted will be hard not to see. Promoted first, enforced, sometimes with prejudice and brutal force, later.
But that is nothing new. Nihil novi ante sol.
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Old 05-09-2019, 04:29 PM
 
Location: US
27,956 posts, read 15,047,299 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
The resurrection was created hundreds of years later? Pauls creed in 1st Corinthians can be dated back to 30s AD. He said

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that ‘Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.’
6 ‘After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;’
8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.”

The strong majority of historians acknowledge that the creed dates back to AD 30-35. The creeds a tradition that Paul received after his apostolic call, certainly not later than his visit to Jerusalem in 35 CE, when he saw Peter and James (Gal. 1:18-19), who, like him, were recipients of appearances. The resurrection was the heart of the early church not something invented hundreds of years later.
How can Paul be an apostle when there were only twelve?...
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,029 posts, read 54,537,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
How can Paul be an apostle when there were only twelve?...
Paul refers to himself as an apostle in an odd passage where he first says he's the least of the apostles and then promotes himself a bit. Just heard it recently.

I suppose I could do a search.

ETA: 8 And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth. 9 For I am the least of the apostles and am unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.…

1 Cor 15:8-10
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Old 05-09-2019, 07:13 PM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,791 posts, read 13,408,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Paul refers to himself as an apostle in an odd passage where he first says he's the least of the apostles and then promotes himself a bit. Just heard it recently.

I suppose I could do a search.

ETA: 8 And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth. 9 For I am the least of the apostles and am unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.…

1 Cor 15:8-10
Puts me in mind of Grima Wormtongue.
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Old 05-10-2019, 02:48 AM
 
Location: US
27,956 posts, read 15,047,299 times
Reputation: 1734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Paul refers to himself as an apostle in an odd passage where he first says he's the least of the apostles and then promotes himself a bit. Just heard it recently.

I suppose I could do a search.

ETA: 8 And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth. 9 For I am the least of the apostles and am unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.…

1 Cor 15:8-10
So, it was only his claim...
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Old 05-10-2019, 04:18 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,038 posts, read 937,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
How can Paul be an apostle when there were only twelve?...
Apostles and disciples have two different meanings. An apostle is a messenger, a disciple is a student or follower.
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Old 05-10-2019, 04:35 AM
 
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Yes. Apostle' and 'disciple' is often confused as the 12 disciples are taken as being also the 12 apostles. Acts of course simply has a replacement for Judas chosen by a ballot. As a kid, I read the bible rather like a story book. I read Acts a bit like the appendices to LoR....what happened to them afterwards. well apart from Peter, and a cameo part for James, who played no part in the gospels, the apostles are pretty much forgotten and it's all about Paul.
As MQ says, he more or less appointed himself as an apostle, first trying to ingratiate himself with the actual followers of Jesus and then appearing to become quite deprecating towards them.

But then, they pretty much vanished and Paulinist Christianity went on to become the Orthodoxy. Peter was ferried over to Rome to become the first Pope, rather as tales of Martydom were assigned to the various apostles and disciples. And the fact that they had all been observing Jews was conveniently forgotten.
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Old 05-10-2019, 06:40 AM
 
Location: USA
3,429 posts, read 1,257,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
So, it was only his claim...
Paul believed that Jesus, who had been executed a few years earlier, appeared to him at a time when Paul was deathly ill, and being cared for and prayed over by a Christian man. This second point is critical.

So, yes, Paul claimed, and apparently fully believed, that he had met with a dead man during his illness. Based on his later letters Paul's belief, his "claim," changed his life.
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:27 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,038 posts, read 937,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
A different world view usually takes along time of debating and discussion until one side wins, that's how culture and worldviews change. But the apostles worldview of resurrection sprang up full-blown immediately after the death of Jesus.
This is based on the later, fictional gospels. The world view of the first Christians was syncretism between gentile and Jewish beliefs. Philo had a similar world view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
Their was no process or development. His followers said their beliefs did not come from debating, but that they were telling others what they had seen themselves. It would have been hard to get Jews to form a movement unless their were multiple, plausible, repeated encounters with Jesus after his death.
According to Paul, they only saw Jesus in visions, or revealed in the OT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
It was blasphemy for Jews to begin worshipping any human being. But hundreds of Jews begin to worship Jesus pretty much overnight. What event broke through all of that Jewish resistance? No other group of Jews ever worshipped a human being as God.
According to Hebrews and the genuine letters of Paul, the first Christians worshiped a divine being. Paul says in Galatians 4:14 Jesus was an angel. Even the later Revelations says Jesus was an angel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
What led them to do it? What changed their worldview so fast and had them willing to die for it, be thrown in prison for it, and preach it through out the cities?
There is no evidence anyone died for their beliefs in Jesus. Even the first martyr stories say the people died for other reasons. And some of these stories conflict, with several alleged disciples dying several times in different places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
What worldly did they gain from preaching Jesus rose from the dead other than the possibility of death?
According to Hebrews, Jesus was a heavenly sacrifice replacing the earthly Temple sacrifice. The first Christians were an anti-Temple movement.
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Old 05-10-2019, 03:37 PM
 
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Yes. The message of sidelining Judaism and everything to do with it is seen throughout the gospels, The Law is mentioned with a certain respect - it HAD been the word of God after all - but it was now replaced by the teachings of Jesus. Jewish ritual cleanliness didn't matter, circumcision didn't matter, clean food didn't matter, The Temple didn't matter, dammit, the Sabbath didn't matter. Honoring your father and mother didn't matter - if they weren't Christians themselves. Father, brother, mother or sister didn't matter, if they were outsiders. Leave them unburied if need be, and follow Jesus. That's the message of the gospels. along with the constant Greek - Christian message that the Gentiles were better than the Jews because they had more Faith. The miracles worked because they had faith and the Jews didn't. A Roman centurion was the best gentile to have Faith, but a Samaritan or Phoenecian would do at a pinch.
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