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Old 05-14-2019, 09:13 AM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
And the early church fathers didn’t believe the gnostic gospels like Thomas or Mary for a reason .
Beginning in the fourth century the newly formed Catholic (or universal) church began the task of establishing what the universal Christian doctrine was to be by carefully choosing to include works concerning Jesus, the events surrounding his life, and his teachings, that conformed to the opinions of the faction that won out and so was able to assert their leadership within the newly formed Catholic church. Here is a more complete list of the works of various Christian groups and writers that DID NOT make the cut into what would become the NT.


1 and 2 Clement
Shepherd of Hermas
Didache
Epistle of Barnabas
Apocalypse of Peter
Third Epistle to the Corinthians
Gospel of Thomas
Oxyrhynchus Gospels
Egerton Gospel
Fayyum Fragment
Dialogue of the Saviour
The Gospel of the Ebionites ("GE") – 7 quotations by Epiphanius.
The Gospel of the Hebrews ("GH") – 1 quotation ascribed to Cyril of Jerusalem, plus GH 2–7 quotations by Clement, Origen, and Jerome.
The Gospel of the Nazarenes
Gospel of the Ebionites
Gospel of the Hebrews
Gospel of the Nazoraeans
Secret Gospel of Mark
Gospel of Marcion
Gospel of Judas
Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Marcion (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Mani (3rd century)
Gospel of Apelles (mid-late 2nd century)
Gospel of Bardesanes (late 2nd - early 3rd century)
Gospel of Basilides (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Peter
Gospel of Nicodemus (also called the "Acts of Pilate")
Pseudo-Cyril of Jerusalem, On the Life and the Passion of Christ
Gospel of Bartholomew
Questions of Bartholomew
Resurrection of Jesus
Apocryphon of James (also called the "Secret Book of James")
Book of Thomas the Contender
Dialogue of the Saviour
Gospel of Judas (also called the "Gospel of Judas Iscariot")
Gospel of Mary (also called the "Gospel of Mary Magdalene")
Gospel of Philip
Greek Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians)
The Sophia of Jesus Christ
Coptic Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Apocalypse of Paul)
Gospel of Truth
Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Apocalypse of Peter)
Pistis Sophia
Second Treatise of the Great Seth
Apocryphon of John (also called the "Secret Gospel of John")
Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Greek Gospel of the Egyptians)
Trimorphic Protennoia
Acts of Andrew
Acts of Barnabas
Acts of John
Acts of the Martyrs
Acts of Paul
Acts of Paul and Thecla
Acts of Peter
Acts of Peter and Andrew
Acts of Peter and Paul
Acts of Peter and the Twelve
Acts of Philip
Acts of Pilate
Acts of Thomas
Acts of Timothy
Acts of Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca
Epistle of Barnabas
Epistles of Clement
Epistle of the Corinthians to Paul
Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Epistle to Diognetus
Epistle to the Laodiceans (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Epistle to Seneca the Younger (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Third Epistle to the Corinthians - accepted in the past by some in the Armenian Orthodox church.
Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Coptic Apocalypse of Paul)
Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter)
Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius
Apocalypse of Thomas (also called the Revelation of Thomas)
Apocalypse of Stephen (also called the Revelation of Stephen)
First Apocalypse of James (also called the First Revelation of James)
Second Apocalypse of James (also called the Second Revelation of James)
The Shepherd of Hermas
The Descent of Mary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:25 PM
 
Location: US
27,574 posts, read 14,846,646 times
Reputation: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Beginning in the fourth century the newly formed Catholic (or universal) church began the task of establishing what the universal Christian doctrine was to be by carefully choosing to include works concerning Jesus, the events surrounding his life, and his teachings, that conformed to the opinions of the faction that won out and so was able to assert their leadership within the newly formed Catholic church. Here is a more complete list of the works of various Christian groups and writers that DID NOT make the cut into what would become the NT.


1 and 2 Clement
Shepherd of Hermas
Didache
Epistle of Barnabas
Apocalypse of Peter
Third Epistle to the Corinthians
Gospel of Thomas
Oxyrhynchus Gospels
Egerton Gospel
Fayyum Fragment
Dialogue of the Saviour
The Gospel of the Ebionites ("GE") Ė 7 quotations by Epiphanius.
The Gospel of the Hebrews ("GH") Ė 1 quotation ascribed to Cyril of Jerusalem, plus GH 2Ė7 quotations by Clement, Origen, and Jerome.
The Gospel of the Nazarenes
Gospel of the Ebionites
Gospel of the Hebrews
Gospel of the Nazoraeans
Secret Gospel of Mark
Gospel of Marcion
Gospel of Judas
Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Marcion (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Mani (3rd century)
Gospel of Apelles (mid-late 2nd century)
Gospel of Bardesanes (late 2nd - early 3rd century)
Gospel of Basilides (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Peter
Gospel of Nicodemus (also called the "Acts of Pilate")
Pseudo-Cyril of Jerusalem, On the Life and the Passion of Christ
Gospel of Bartholomew
Questions of Bartholomew
Resurrection of Jesus
Apocryphon of James (also called the "Secret Book of James")
Book of Thomas the Contender
Dialogue of the Saviour
Gospel of Judas (also called the "Gospel of Judas Iscariot")
Gospel of Mary (also called the "Gospel of Mary Magdalene")
Gospel of Philip
Greek Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians)
The Sophia of Jesus Christ
Coptic Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Apocalypse of Paul)
Gospel of Truth
Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Apocalypse of Peter)
Pistis Sophia
Second Treatise of the Great Seth
Apocryphon of John (also called the "Secret Gospel of John")
Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Greek Gospel of the Egyptians)
Trimorphic Protennoia
Acts of Andrew
Acts of Barnabas
Acts of John
Acts of the Martyrs
Acts of Paul
Acts of Paul and Thecla
Acts of Peter
Acts of Peter and Andrew
Acts of Peter and Paul
Acts of Peter and the Twelve
Acts of Philip
Acts of Pilate
Acts of Thomas
Acts of Timothy
Acts of Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca
Epistle of Barnabas
Epistles of Clement
Epistle of the Corinthians to Paul
Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Epistle to Diognetus
Epistle to the Laodiceans (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Epistle to Seneca the Younger (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Third Epistle to the Corinthians - accepted in the past by some in the Armenian Orthodox church.
Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Coptic Apocalypse of Paul)
Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter)
Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius
Apocalypse of Thomas (also called the Revelation of Thomas)
Apocalypse of Stephen (also called the Revelation of Stephen)
First Apocalypse of James (also called the First Revelation of James)
Second Apocalypse of James (also called the Second Revelation of James)
The Shepherd of Hermas
The Descent of Mary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha
You mentioned Shepard of Hermes twice...
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:58 PM
 
10,960 posts, read 11,113,986 times
Reputation: 3314
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
A different world view usually takes along time of debating and discussion until one side wins, that's how culture and worldviews change. But the apostles worldview of resurrection sprang up full-blown immediately after the death of Jesus. Their was no process or development. His followers said their beliefs did not come from debating, but that they were telling others what they had seen themselves. It would have been hard to get Jews to form a movement unless their were multiple, plausible, repeated encounters with Jesus after his death. It was blasphemy for Jews to begin worshipping any human being. But hundreds of Jews begin to worship Jesus pretty much overnight. What event broke through all of that Jewish resistance? No other group of Jews ever worshipped a human being as God. What led them to do it? What changed their worldview so fast and had them willing to die for it, be thrown in prison for it, and preach it through out the cities? What worldly did they gain from preaching Jesus rose from the dead other than the possibility of death?

quoting 2400, your age is probably commensurate with your reputation. If you knew a single thing about the history of the early church and how it developed you wouldn't say such silly things. You obviously have been brainwashed by your older peers who have been at this a little longer than you. I'm going to give you 9 words. Please look them up. "Destruction of the temple in 70 CE", "syncretism", "gnosticism". You need to educate yourself before talking with grownups.
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:03 PM
 
10,960 posts, read 11,113,986 times
Reputation: 3314
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post

The strong majority of historians acknowledge that the creed dates back to AD 30-35. The creeds a tradition that Paul received after his apostolic call, certainly not later than his visit to Jerusalem in 35 CE, when he saw Peter and James (Gal. 1:18-19), who, like him, were recipients of appearances. The resurrection was the heart of the early church not something invented hundreds of years later.

Quoting, you haven't got a single historical source for fixing this date. Other than Paul, no source exists. Historians fix Corinthians at about 60 CE. Please stop aping Mike Licona. This is one of his big lies.
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:24 AM
 
Location: USA
3,404 posts, read 1,229,745 times
Reputation: 1002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You mentioned Shepard of Hermes twice...
Thank you. I have corrected my notes.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:00 AM
 
Location: US
27,574 posts, read 14,846,646 times
Reputation: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Thank you. I have corrected my notes.
Good list, though....
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:31 PM
 
Location: USA
3,404 posts, read 1,229,745 times
Reputation: 1002
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
The resurrection was created hundreds of years later? Pauls creed in 1st Corinthians can be dated back to 30s AD. He said

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that ‘Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.’
6 ‘After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;’
8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.”

The strong majority of historians acknowledge that the creed dates back to AD 30-35. The creeds a tradition that Paul received after his apostolic call, certainly not later than his visit to Jerusalem in 35 CE, when he saw Peter and James (Gal. 1:18-19), who, like him, were recipients of appearances. The resurrection was the heart of the early church not something invented hundreds of years later.
1st Corinthians is generally dated at around the middle of the 50's ad.

Google
Anthony C. Thiselton suggests that it is possible that I Corinthians was written during Paul's first (brief) stay in Ephesus, at the end of his Second Journey, usually dated to early AD 54.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...51.GxbH5pLaoIY

Wikipedia
First Epistle to the Corinthians
By comparing Acts of the Apostles 18:1–17 and mentions of Ephesus in the Corinthian correspondence, scholars suggest that the letter was written during Paul's stay in Ephesus, which is usually dated as being in the range of AD 53–57.

Anthony C. Thiselton suggests that it is possible that I Corinthians was written during Paul's first (brief) stay in Ephesus, at the end of his Second Journey, usually dated to early AD 54.[12] However, it is more likely that it was written during his extended stay in Ephesus, where he refers to sending Timothy to them (Acts 19:22, I Cor. 4:17).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...he_Corinthians

By Paul's own admission he was not one of the original apostles but underwent his conversion some few years after the time that the Gospels indicate that Jesus was executed. As such Paul was not a personal witness to ANY of the events detailed in the Gospels. Including any post crucifixion "appearances" of the risen Jesus that the original apostles claimed occurred during the forty days after the crucifixion which Acts of the Apostles claims that Jesus appeared to his disciples (Acts 1:3). At which point Acts asserts that Jesus bodily arose up into the air and disappeared into the clouds (Acts 1:9).

So where does Paul get the story of the 500, mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:6? He doesn't say. Acts tells us that the disciples of Jesus began spreading the story of the risen Jesus, beginning shortly after, according to them, Jesus flew bodily up into the sky and disappeared into the clouds. So the origin of the risen Jesus story can be traced back to claims made by his followers after his death. Paul may well have gotten the story of the 500 from the apostles. Paul also tended to accept his dreams and hallucinations as fact however.

2Cor.12
[1] It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)


Paul's conversion to Christianity came at a time when he was deathly ill, delusional, and being tended to and prayed over by a Christian man.

There is little reason to doubt that Paul's conversion and his belief in the resurrected Jesus was genuine. As has been the belief of the millions of devoted Christians that followed him. None of which had or have any direct personal knowledge of the claimed resurrection either.

The question becomes, IS IT REASONABLE TO BELIEVE THAT A CORPSE CAME BACK TO LIFE AND FLEW AWAY SIMPLY BECAUSE HIS FOLLOWERS CLAIMED THAT IT HAPPENED?

Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 05-16-2019 at 12:43 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 05:44 PM
 
35 posts, read 4,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
quoting 2400, your age is probably commensurate with your reputation. If you knew a single thing about the history of the early church and how it developed you wouldn't say such silly things. You obviously have been brainwashed by your older peers who have been at this a little longer than you. I'm going to give you 9 words. Please look them up. "Destruction of the temple in 70 CE", "syncretism", "gnosticism". You need to educate yourself before talking with grownups.

The temple destruction, syncretism, and Gnosticism would not even in principle diminish the truthfulness of anything as to what was stated here.. For instance, while it may be true that some early Christians were syncretistic in that they borrowed from some pagan philosophies and such, it would not then logically follow that Christianity is false, since Christians don't deny that there were those who wrongfully sought to syncretize beliefs. The fact that some syncretized does not necessitate that all syncretized. Gnosticism was well known to early Christians and it was outright rejected as false, even if it is true that some succumbed to it and syncretized with it. Again that’s why early church fathers fought hard to keep the later gnostic writings out of what they were preaching and what the apostles taught them.

At its core and especially when you get down to the essentials, it is Gnosticism (Variations of it) and other pagan notions that are themselves syncretistic. Christianity is exclusivistic. It claims to be the only truth, which makes it inherently inconsistent with other systems of thought. The issue is not that people who called themselves Christian borrowed from Gnosticism, but rather, does Christianity teach Gnosticism or that it is a valid approach to syncretize with paganism. The answer is a simple no... If someone suggests that it does they just haven't read and understood the Hebrew Scriptures along with the New Testament.
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Old Yesterday, 05:55 PM
 
Location: US
27,574 posts, read 14,846,646 times
Reputation: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
The temple destruction, syncretism, and Gnosticism would not even in principle diminish the truthfulness of anything as to what was stated here.. For instance, while it may be true that some early Christians were syncretistic in that they borrowed from some pagan philosophies and such, it would not then logically follow that Christianity is false, since Christians don't deny that there were those who wrongfully sought to syncretize beliefs. The fact that some syncretized does not necessitate that all syncretized. Gnosticism was well known to early Christians and it was outright rejected as false, even if it is true that some succumbed to it and syncretized with it. Again thatís why early church fathers fought hard to keep the later gnostic writings out of what they were preaching and what the apostles taught them.

At its core and especially when you get down to the essentials, it is Gnosticism (Variations of it) and other pagan notions that are themselves syncretistic. Christianity is exclusivistic. It claims to be the only truth, which makes it inherently inconsistent with other systems of thought. The issue is not that people who called themselves Christian borrowed from Gnosticism, but rather, does Christianity teach Gnosticism or that it is a valid approach to syncretize with paganism. The answer is a simple no... If someone suggests that it does they just haven't read and understood the Hebrew Scriptures along with the New Testament.
It is obvious that you havenít understood the Hebrew Scriptures...
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Old Today, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Germany
4,636 posts, read 850,166 times
Reputation: 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
The temple destruction, syncretism, and Gnosticism would not even in principle diminish the truthfulness of anything as to what was stated here.. For instance, while it may be true that some early Christians were syncretistic in that they borrowed from some pagan philosophies and such, it would not then logically follow that Christianity is false, since Christians don't deny that there were those who wrongfully sought to syncretize beliefs. The fact that some syncretized does not necessitate that all syncretized.
Not some Christians were syncretistic, all of them were. The whole religion is based on Judaism and Greek philosophy, with other religions adding some ideas. And all the later versions of Christianity all evolved from this first syncretic religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
Gnosticism was well known to early Christians and it was outright rejected as false, even if it is true that some succumbed to it and syncretized with it.
And other sects of Christianity rejected all their opponents as false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
Again thatís why early church fathers fought hard to keep the later gnostic writings out of what they were preaching and what the apostles taught them.
Yet it took a Papal decree around 1850 to stop theologians talking about the Gnostic nature of the gospel according to John. Even one of the early Christian fathers pointed out that if you read John 8:44 literally, the whole chapter talks about 2 gods, with the god of the Jews being an evil god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
At its core and especially when you get down to the essentials, it is Gnosticism (Variations of it) and other pagan notions that are themselves syncretistic. Christianity is exclusivistic. It claims to be the only truth, which makes it inherently inconsistent with other systems of thought. The issue is not that people who called themselves Christian borrowed from Gnosticism, but rather, does Christianity teach Gnosticism or that it is a valid approach to syncretize with paganism. The answer is a simple no... If someone suggests that it does they just haven't read and understood the Hebrew Scriptures along with the New Testament.
Come back when you can read the NT in it's original Koine Greek.
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