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Old 05-29-2019, 01:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post

There is no evidence anyone died for their beliefs in Jesus.
Plenty of evidence many people have died due to their lack of belief in him.
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Old 05-29-2019, 01:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Plenty of evidence many people have died due to their lack of belief in him.
Really?
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Old 05-29-2019, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Really?
You do know that you are responding to a long-time poster who is a Torah-observant Jew, don't you?

Figure it out.
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Old 05-29-2019, 04:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
You do know that you are responding to a long-time poster who is a Torah-observant Jew, don't you?

Figure it out.
Ah
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Old 05-29-2019, 05:00 PM
 
21,612 posts, read 16,590,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post

There is no evidence anyone died for their beliefs in Jesus. Even the first martyr stories say the people died for other reasons. And some of these stories conflict, with several alleged disciples dying several times in different places.
Pliny the Younger in his letter to Trajan states that he ordered Christians who refused to deny that they were Christians to be executed.
Pliny the Younger and Trajan on the Christians

Pliny the Younger, Letters 10.96-97
Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan


Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome. [Bolding mine]

Pliny the Younger and Trajan on the Christians
So yes, there is historical evidence that Christians were martyred for their belief in Jesus. For being a Christian.
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Old 05-30-2019, 11:35 AM
 
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Well done Mike. We can always ely on you for some sound evidential support, if there is any.

Of course, (I don't recall exactly how we got onto this subject) it only shows that later Christians in the Roman empire were willing to die for their faith. It would not in itself show that the Disciples were martyred rather than deny that they saw Jesus walking about and talking and displaying his war -wounds after the crucifixion. Which is sometimes the argument made.

For the other argument - we have never denied that thousands or more are willing to be Martyred for their faith. Especially if they can take a few dozen infidels with them.
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Old 05-30-2019, 05:52 PM
 
13,061 posts, read 4,898,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Well done Mike. We can always ely on you for some sound evidential support, if there is any.

Of course, (I don't recall exactly how we got onto this subject) it only shows that later Christians in the Roman empire were willing to die for their faith. It would not in itself show that the Disciples were martyred rather than deny that they saw Jesus walking about and talking and displaying his war -wounds after the crucifixion. Which is sometimes the argument made.

For the other argument - we have never denied that thousands or more are willing to be Martyred for their faith. Especially if they can take a few dozen infidels with them.
yeah, definitely paid by the word. no way you post this stuff for free. Its just way to mundane.
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Old 06-03-2019, 03:48 AM
Status: "Pr 6:16-19, JeffBase!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
4,804 posts, read 893,064 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Pliny the Younger in his letter to Trajan states that he ordered Christians who refused to deny that they were Christians to be executed.
Pliny the Younger and Trajan on the Christians

Pliny the Younger, Letters 10.96-97
Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan


Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome. [Bolding mine]

Pliny the Younger and Trajan on the Christians
So yes, there is historical evidence that Christians were martyred for their belief in Jesus. For being a Christian.
True, but irrelevant to the point I was answering, which was about "hundreds of Jews begin to worship Jesus pretty much overnight. What event broke through all of that Jewish resistance? No other group of Jews ever worshipped a human being as God. What led them to do it? What changed their worldview so fast and had them willing to die for it, be thrown in prison for it, and preach it through out the cities? What worldly did they gain from preaching Jesus rose from the dead other than the possibility of death?"

My apologies for the confusion.
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Old 06-03-2019, 11:17 AM
 
Location: "Arlen" Texas
2,384 posts, read 1,548,976 times
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It was the few who were in positions of leadership in the Roman Empire that adapted their cultures dying man-god version to fit their power structure and imported it to their known world. Before that the Roman Empire had been tolerant of other religions in conquered areas but once xtianity became a more efficient source of power that they hoped would cause the masses to worship them too, many people were forced to at least say the believed. Fast forward a couple generations and their grandkids did believe because it's what they had been taught. There are some good videos online explaining the details if you have the gumption to watch them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmEScIUcvz0
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Old 06-03-2019, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,623 posts, read 4,911,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Paul believed that Jesus, who had been executed a few years earlier, appeared to him at a time when Paul was deathly ill, and being cared for and prayed over by a Christian man. This second point is critical.

So, yes, Paul claimed, and apparently fully believed, that he had met with a dead man during his illness. Based on his later letters Paul's belief, his "claim," changed his life.
It's just not that simple to say that one believes Paul's visit or not, the entire episode is filled with so much symbolism that it is not just a man claiming to have a visit, it is a man who is put in so many esoteric symbolisms that the circumstances are teaching concepts and fulfilment.

What happened to Paul is taken from the book of Jonah, and there are many points of Paul and his episode pointing to the book of Jonah that if it was a made up story, it was a very well made up story.

Those fish scales symbolised Paul being inside a fish as Jonah was, same as Jesus was, The story is showing so much more than just a visit, it is showing fulfilled prophesy, and if it is a made up story, whoever made it up was a genius who knew the language of the bible. It was no coincedence that Paul was from Tarsus.
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