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Old Yesterday, 06:34 AM
 
Location: Germany
4,596 posts, read 835,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
You do know the Gospels didn’t just make that story up. It was prophecy from Isaiah 7:14 some 700 years before the Gospels. Far as I can tell Hercules was written 800-600 BC and Isaiah 700 BC.
No, the gospel 'prophecies' are invented out of the OT passages. And the more 'prophecies' you have, the more invented is the story of Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
A classic example of Chiasmus, a literary device (usually used in fiction) connecting the start of Matthew (minus genealogy) with the end.
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Old Yesterday, 06:40 AM
 
Location: US
27,492 posts, read 14,810,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoting2400 View Post
You do know the Gospels didn’t just make that story up. It was prophecy from Isaiah 7:14 some 700 years before the Gospels. Far as I can tell Hercules was written 800-600 BC and Isaiah 700 BC.

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
This is what Isaiah 7:14 actually says:

Yeshayahu - Isaiah - Chapter 7

14 Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.


In other words, it already took place during Isaiah’s time, it was not some future event...
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Old Yesterday, 09:18 AM
 
Location: USA
3,385 posts, read 1,222,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
This is what Isaiah 7:14 actually says:

Yeshayahu - Isaiah - Chapter 7

14 Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.


In other words, it already took place during Isaiah’s time, it was not some future event...

Let's see what the direct Hebrew Interlinear translation has to say.

Hebrew Interlinear Bible (OT)
therefore he-shall-give my-Lord he to·you(p) sign behold ! (הָ עַ לְ מָ ה/e·olme) the·damsel pregnant-one Therefore the Lord and·one-giving-birth son ·she-calls name-of·him Immanu~El
https://www.scripture4all.org/Online...OTpdf/isa7.pdf

Notice that Isa 7:14 uses the term damsel (הָ עַ לְ מָ ה/e·olme) rather than the Hebrew word for virgin (בתולה)

Damsels (young girls) are not necessarily VIRGINS; i.e. never having had sexual intercourse. And of course the whole notion of a pregnant virgin is exactly the same contradiction in terms as a married bachelor. Isa. 7:14 commits no such contradiction in terms.
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Old Yesterday, 09:50 AM
 
Location: US
27,492 posts, read 14,810,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Let's see what the direct Hebrew Interlinear translation has to say.

Hebrew Interlinear Bible (OT)
therefore he-shall-give my-Lord he to·you(p) sign behold ! (הָ עַ לְ מָ ה/e·olme) the·damsel pregnant-one Therefore the Lord and·one-giving-birth son ·she-calls name-of·him Immanu~El
https://www.scripture4all.org/Online...OTpdf/isa7.pdf

Notice that Isa 7:14 uses the term damsel (הָ עַ לְ מָ ה/e·olme) rather than the Hebrew word for virgin (בתולה)

Damsels (young girls) are not necessarily VIRGINS; i.e. never having had sexual intercourse. And of course the whole notion of a pregnant virgin is exactly the same contradiction in terms as a married bachelor. Isa. 7:14 commits no such contradiction in terms.
In the original Hebrew Tanakh it doesn’t, but in the Christian Old Testament it does...
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Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM
 
Location: US
27,492 posts, read 14,810,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Let's see what the direct Hebrew Interlinear translation has to say.

Hebrew Interlinear Bible (OT)
therefore he-shall-give my-Lord he to·you(p) sign behold ! (הָ עַ לְ מָ ה/e·olme) the·damsel pregnant-one Therefore the Lord and·one-giving-birth son ·she-calls name-of·him Immanu~El
https://www.scripture4all.org/Online...OTpdf/isa7.pdf

Notice that Isa 7:14 uses the term damsel (הָ עַ לְ מָ ה/e·olme) rather than the Hebrew word for virgin (בתולה)

Damsels (young girls) are not necessarily VIRGINS; i.e. never having had sexual intercourse. And of course the whole notion of a pregnant virgin is exactly the same contradiction in terms as a married bachelor. Isa. 7:14 commits no such contradiction in terms.
Actually, Hebrew word is הָֽעַלְמָ֗ה, Ha-Almah, which means “young woman”, who may or may not be a virgin...Damsel is more of an old English word...
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Old Yesterday, 10:07 AM
 
10,907 posts, read 11,089,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
Don't forget about Pharaoh wanting to kill all the baby Hebrews and Moses and stuff.

Yes, exactly. I gave a link elsewhere that demonstrates where EVERYTHING Mark wrote in his gospel came from. Example:
Quote:
1. Introduction (1:1--3)
The syncretic flavor of Mark is at once evident from his reproduction of a piece of Augustan imperial propaganda and his setting it beside a tailored scripture quote. “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God” closely matches the formula found on a monument erected by the Provincial Assembly in Asia Minor (1st century BCE): “Whereas... Providence... has... brought our life to the peak of perfection in giving us Augustus Caesar... who, being sent to us and to our descendants as a savior..., and whereas... the birthday of the god has been for the whole world the beginning of the gospel (euaggelion) concerning him, let all reckon a new era beginning from the date of his birth.” (Helms, p. 24) As is well known, Mark proceeds to introduce as from Isaiah a conflation of passages, Malachi 3:1a, “Behold, I send my messenger/angel to prepare the way before me,” and Exodus 23:20a, “Behold, I send a [LXX: my] messenger/angel before you, to guard you on the way,” plus Isaiah 40:3, “A voice cries: ‘In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.” The messenger/angel has been made to refer to John the Baptizer, while the speaker seems to be Jesus. The wilderness is no longer, as originally, the place where the way is to be paved, but rather the location of the crying prophetic voice, that of John. The Dead Sea Scrolls sect had used the same Isaiah passage to prooftext their own desert witness.

New Testament Narrative as Old Testament Midrash by Robert M. Price


But Christians will not read this because it would shatter all they believe in and they can't handle the truth.
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Old Yesterday, 10:08 AM
 
Location: USA
3,385 posts, read 1,222,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Actually, Hebrew word is הָֽעַלְמָ֗ה, Ha-Almah, which means “young woman”, who may or may not be a virgin...Damsel is more of an old English word...
Here is a list of individuals traditionally said to have been conceived through miraculous birth, virgin birth or impregnation by a god.

Marduk
Buddha
Houji
Laozi
Abaoji
Jesus
Mary mother of Jesus
Horus
Hatshepsut
Amenhotep III:
Perseus
Apollo
Hermes
Dionysus
Persephone
Hercules
Pan
Mithra
Ion
Romulus
Asclepius
Homer
Helen
Oedipus
Alexander
Ptolemy
Caesar
Krishna
Karna
visnu
Muhammad
Kabir
Isaac
Melchizedek
Quetzalcoatl
Huitzilopochtli
Zoroaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births

Some of these individuals, Jesus, Hercules, Zoroaster, Homer, Alexander, Mohammad, for example, may well have been actual historically existent people. It's hard to be certain of much confronted with many centuries of myth and legend.
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Old Yesterday, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
14,822 posts, read 11,823,708 times
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Mary didn't have a virgin birth...where did that come from. Shouldn't be on the list.
Maybe there is a confusion as to what the Immaculate Conception was?
(I mean, believed to be.)

Actually many are a surprise to me..Alexander, Ptolemy, Mohammad, Kabir, Zoraster..huh? Caesar? What?
Come on!
Buddha was the son of a king...
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Old Yesterday, 03:40 PM
 
38,248 posts, read 10,434,090 times
Reputation: 5026
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
In the original Hebrew Tanakh it doesn’t, but in the Christian Old Testament it does...
Do we have that in the Qumran scrolls?

We do

5. (10) [{And continuing YHW}]H spoke to Ahaz saying, (11) Ask for yourself a sign from YHWH your God
26. [{from the deep ask}] it or from the height above. (12) And Ahaz said I will nor ask and I will not
27. [{tempt}] YHWH. (13) And He said, Hear now Oh House of David, is it a small thing for you
28. [{to wear}]y men, will you also weary God, (14) therefore [+YHWH+] [m..adonay] himself will give to you [{a sign}]
29.[{Behold}] the virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son and he shall call his name Immanuel. (15) Butter [{and honey}
].. (The great Isaiah scroll)

So we can take it that This is a consistent reading from Jesus' time and after the Jewish war and up until today. So the argument that Septuagint used 'Parthenos' because , unlike Hebrew, there wasn't in Greek the two specific words to distinguish between 'young woman' and 'Virgin'. Thus, (the argument goes) the later Christians latched onto this reading in Greek..they would never have misread this if they had known Hebrew- and took it as a prophecy of the birth of Jesus -whom they had by then been thinking of as an incarnated God, and this Miraculous birth in the OT seemed to prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Actually, Hebrew word is הָֽעַלְמָ֗ה, Ha-Almah, which means “young woman”, who may or may not be a virgin...Damsel is more of an old English word...
But 'Bethulah' does mean 'virgo intacta' doesn't it? So if that was what was meant, though should have been used.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; Yesterday at 04:02 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 08:25 PM
 
6,743 posts, read 4,024,088 times
Reputation: 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
If you had been told the story below hundreds of thousands of times since you were an infant, wouldn't you believe the story to be true and not a myth?

Matthew: 1:18-25

Heracles, born of a virgin made pregnant by a god. Jesus, born of a virgin made pregnant by a god. Hera, queen of Olympus sought to have the baby Heracles killed out of jealousy. Herod, king of Judea sought to have the baby Jesus killed out of jealousy.

Sound familiar?????

https://www.bartleby.com/essay/The-P...les-P3CA58QZVC
AND....unfortunate for those all bolloxed-up about it...The Bible/Quran & Abrahamic Theology in general... have greater power and influence than any concept EVER.
I may not put stock in it beyond as a philosophy...but I am of a minority. Though it doesn't bother me at all who does.
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