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Old 05-18-2019, 02:23 PM
 
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Did the guy arrive at any of his conclusions about creation via empirical investigation?


If not, who cares what some shaman has to say about a subject he has no understanding of.
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Old 05-18-2019, 03:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Smart to deny the literal nature of Genesis, since it is false literally (and I would wager false metaphorically also), but nothing else.

Haha, not a scientific or logical genius on cosmology by a long shot. Augustine prefers here the STATIC MODEL OF CREATION, the opposite of Genesis and the opposite of the Big Bang slow step-by-step Development. The "creation of Eden" did not happen in 7 days to him, but in 1 instant, the birds created as they were, the sky and waters created as they were in an instant, not in one day, and not through millions of years of Evolution.

Ken_N, it seems the Augustin favors the green idea "They are too stupid to know the truth like we know the truth, so we lie to them so they believe us on the important parts!" Sure O.K.

Perhaps science should NEVER take a sophist "clue" from this guy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Augustine is the one that popularized Tertullian's notion of eternal damnation and burning forever in tortuous fires for not accepting Jesus, so for that we can blithely damn him to hell for eternity. That aside, his perspectives on Genesis are probably not worth the time or effort to read.
I am no fan of Augustine for that very reason, Thrill and Luminous correctly disdains Augustine's Static all at once Creation. But, Augustine was not devoid of God-inspired insight when he said that God did not make our Reality IN time. God made it WITH time. Our Reality is a TIME-space as opposed to a space-time. Our conception and experience of space come from the passage of time. This is revealed to the mathematically literate in Minkowski's Topological Constancy of the World Interval wherein Spatial separation (S) is shown as the effect of time intervals at lightspeed C*(T2-T1). I = Squareroot[S^2 C^2(T2 - T1)^2]
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Old 05-18-2019, 03:47 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
Did the guy arrive at any of his conclusions about creation via empirical investigation?


If not, who cares what some shaman has to say about a subject he has no understanding of.
I don't know what you are talking about, many people love and listen to what poets like to delude them with.
I guess I'm glad you aren't one of them. Caring about well-investigated unbiased details is very important indeed.
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Old 05-18-2019, 03:53 PM
 
38,753 posts, read 10,667,394 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am no fan of Augustine for that very reason, Thrill and Luminous correctly disdains Augustine's Static all at once Creation. But, Augustine was not devoid of God-inspired insight when he said that God did not make our Reality IN time. God made it WITH time. Our Reality is a TIME-space as opposed to a space-time. Our conception and experience of space come from the passage of time. This is revealed to the mathematically literate in Minkowski's Topological Constancy of the World Interval wherein Spatial separation (S) is shown as the effect of time intervals at lightspeed C*(T2-T1). I = Squareroot[S^2 C^2(T2 - T1)^2]
But isn't the conclusion of Minkowski's theorem that no event outside of the space -time continuum can ever be the cause of any event within? So wouldn't that rule out an entity outside the proper -space -time 'cone' being the 'cause' of any creation event within it?
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Old 05-18-2019, 03:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
You obviously got that from reading something else third-hand. Not from his own words.

In other words, thanks for contributing absolutely nothing.

Oh, my pleasure. Look for me to do it more often in the future.
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Old 05-18-2019, 04:18 PM
 
39,790 posts, read 26,595,443 times
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
But isn't the conclusion of Minkowski's theorem that no event outside of the space-time continuum can ever be the cause of any event within? So wouldn't that rule out an entity outside the proper -space-time 'cone' being the 'cause' of any creation event within it?
Since all our measurements are within the time-space described by Minkowski, that would have to be true within it. But it says nothing about the Reality of the substrate within which our time-space is embedded. This might be worrisome to those who believe in an interventionist God instead of an inseminator one (seeder). But to return to my analogy of our time-space (your measurable reductionist materialist space) as the "womb" within which the unmeasurable substrate (consciousness field) is propagated (reproduced), the phenomenon of imagination within consciousness becomes probative. Of course, these ideas would be problematic if our Reality were static, but it is expanding (I would say "growing.")
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Old 05-18-2019, 04:50 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am no fan of Augustine for that very reason, Thrill and Luminous correctly disdains Augustine's Static all at once Creation. But, Augustine was not devoid of God-inspired insight when he said that God did not make our Reality IN time. God made it WITH time. Our Reality is a TIME-space as opposed to a space-time. Our conception and experience of space come from the passage of time. This is revealed to the mathematically literate in Minkowski's Topological Constancy of the World Interval wherein Spatial separation (S) is shown as the effect of time intervals at lightspeed C*(T2-T1). I = Squareroot[S^2 C^2(T2 - T1)^2]
Haha, I don't rather "disdain" the model. It is just silly. I happen to currently favor the evolutionary, Physics Cosmology models because they make more sense to me with simplicity (as we lie to ourselves about perceiving it) evolving into complexity (as we perceive it).

Sure, I admit again that Augustine had a more thoughtful and a simpler more concrete philosophical model than a literal Genesis 7 days or 7,000 days (which "many years" was also the interpretation of some of Augustin's detractors).

But Augustin, I think, was arguing that his Bibliolatry was all "truthfully" about a sort of "First-Static, all-at-once, then-rolling-but-only-according-to-kind" Creation and that Genesis was just a good necessary "mistruth" "but not contradicting!" (LOL) tool to convince those unwilling to believe in such a "all-at-once" Creation.

"poof-Magic" was already "known" to happen instantaneously back then, "the gods" did not "take their time" with their "marvels."

Augustin was not thinking about a space-time continuum, God was (or the infinite number of possible gods were) not whispering the beginnings of Einstein's or Minkowski's models to him.
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Old 05-18-2019, 04:53 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Oh, my pleasure. Look for me to do it more often in the future.
Well, I would like you to link to him discussing hell, or to people with first-hand knowledge talking about how he discussed hell.

Hell (with or without "Queen Hela") had to have a "Creation" as well, no?
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Old 05-18-2019, 05:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Oh, my pleasure. Look for me to do it more often in the future.
Thank you. I look forward to it with enthusiasm.
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Old 05-18-2019, 07:54 PM
 
38,753 posts, read 10,667,394 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Since all our measurements are within the time-space described by Minkowski, that would have to be true within it. But it says nothing about the Reality of the substrate within which our time-space is embedded. This might be worrisome to those who believe in an interventionist God instead of an inseminator one (seeder). But to return to my analogy of our time-space (your measurable reductionist materialist space) as the "womb" within which the unmeasurable substrate (consciousness field) is propagated (reproduced), the phenomenon of imagination within consciousness becomes probative. Of course, these ideas would be problematic if our Reality were static, but it is expanding (I would say "growing.")
Then our measurements within Minkowski's time -space are - as you say 'True'. What is without it is unknown and (the conclusion I read is that what is outside it cannot have effected it. What you say about the substrate of reality within it is of course a different matter. And here we are seeing your speculative claims about reality and the consciousness.
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