U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-17-2019, 10:21 PM
 
10,556 posts, read 12,744,353 times
Reputation: 3869

Advertisements

What do you think of Augustine's perspective on creation?

He was an early church father. I think it shows how ahead of the time he was. He still sounds like he was ahead of science, even science of today.

"Perhaps we ought not to think of these creatures at the moment they were produced as subject to the processes of nature which we now observe in them, but rather as under the wonderful and unutterable power of the Wisdom of God, which reaches from end to end mightily and governs all graciously. For this power of Divine Wisdom does not reach by stages or arrive by steps. It was just as easy, then, for God to create everything as it is for Wisdom to exercise this mighty power. For through Wisdom all things were made, and the motion we now see in creatures, measured by the lapse of time, as each one fulfills its proper function, comes to creatures from those causal reasons implanted in them, which God scattered as seeds at the moment of creation when He spoke and they were made, He commanded and they were created. Creation, therefore, did not take place slowly in order that a slow development might be implanted in those things that are slow by nature; nor were the ages established at plodding pace at which they now pass. Time brings about the development of these creatures according to the laws of their numbers, but there was no passage of time when they received these laws at creation."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-18-2019, 04:37 AM
 
478 posts, read 256,514 times
Reputation: 635
Augustine has a work called “On the Literal Meaning of Genesis”, which is the opposite of what one would think.

The writings of the Fathers of the Church and the Doctors of the Church present the real adult doctrine, which is very different from the common ideas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2019, 10:49 AM
 
11,251 posts, read 11,267,699 times
Reputation: 3450
Augustine is the one that popularized Tertullian's notion of eternal damnation and burning forever in tortuous fires for not accepting Jesus, so for that we can blithely damn him to hell for eternity. That aside, his perspectives on Genesis are probably not worth the time or effort to read.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2019, 11:05 AM
 
10,556 posts, read 12,744,353 times
Reputation: 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Augustine is the one that popularized Tertullian's notion of eternal damnation and burning forever in tortuous fires for not accepting Jesus, so for that we can blithely damn him to hell for eternity. That aside, his perspectives on Genesis are probably not worth the time or effort to read.
You obviously got that from reading something else third-hand. Not from his own words.

In other words, thanks for contributing absolutely nothing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2019, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,508 posts, read 10,414,434 times
Reputation: 20336
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
You obviously got that from reading something else third-hand. Not from his own words.

In other words, thanks for contributing absolutely nothing.
And your comments about him are what...fourth hand?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2019, 11:34 AM
 
10,556 posts, read 12,744,353 times
Reputation: 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
And your comments about him are what...fourth hand?
God transmitted the comments to me psychically. THEN, I found them in an old out of print book which I saw falling out of the back of a truck, which I verified before posting.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2019, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,508 posts, read 10,414,434 times
Reputation: 20336
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
God transmitted the comments to me psychically. THEN, I found them in an old out of print book which I saw falling out of the back of a truck, which I verified before posting.
You probably believe that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2019, 01:55 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,742,175 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
Augustine has a work called “On the Literal Meaning of Genesis”, which is the opposite of what one would think.

The writings of the Fathers of the Church and the Doctors of the Church present the real adult doctrine, which is very different from the common ideas.
Most pagans also held to an idea of
"what we teach the illiterate laity is literal, but what we know metaphorically through these fake stories is what is really important, and if they falsely believe it is literal, then they still get the same 'moral' idea."

No, not true. They learn to be unquestioning and ignorant. Not moral or pious at all.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 05-18-2019 at 02:39 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2019, 02:05 PM
 
478 posts, read 256,514 times
Reputation: 635
Wrong link up above, here is the right link:

Fathers of the Church
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2019, 02:15 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,742,175 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
St. Augustine. THE LITERAL MEANING OF GENESIS

Book IV




Chapter 33 God created all things simultaneously.

51. But if the angelic mind can grasp simultaneously all that the sacred text sets down separately in an ordered arrangement according to causal connection, were not all these things also made simultaneously, the firmament itself, the waters gathered together and the bare land that appeared, the plants and trees that sprang forth, the lights and stars that were established, the living creatures in the water and on the earth? Or were they rather created at different times on appointed days?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
What do you think of Augustine's perspective on creation?

He was an early church father. I think it shows how ahead of the time he was. He still sounds like he was ahead of science, even science of today.


"Perhaps we ought not to think of these creatures at the moment they were produced as subject to the processes of nature which we now observe in them, but rather as under the wonderful and unutterable power of the Wisdom of God, which reaches from end to end mightily and governs all graciously. For this power of Divine Wisdom does not reach by stages or arrive by steps. It was just as easy, then, for God to create everything as it is for Wisdom to exercise this mighty power. For through Wisdom all things were made, and the motion we now see in creatures, measured by the lapse of time, as each one fulfills its proper function, comes to creatures from those causal reasons implanted in them, which God scattered as seeds at the moment of creation when He spoke and they were made, He commanded and they were created. Creation, therefore, did not take place slowly in order that a slow development might be implanted in those things that are slow by nature; nor were the ages established at [the] plodding pace at which they now pass. Time brings about the development of these creatures according to the laws of their numbers, but there was no passage of time when they received these laws at creation."
Quote:
Otherwise, if we think that, when they were first created by the Word of God, there were the processes of nature with the normal duration of days that we know, those creatures that shoot forth roots and clothe the earth would need not one day but many to germinate beneath the ground, and then a certain number of days, according to their natures, to come forth from the ground; and the creation of vegetation, which Scripture places on one day, namely the third, would have been a gradual process.

And then how many days were necessary for birds [chicks] to fly, if they proceeded from the earliest stages through the periods of natural growth to the sprouting of feathers and wings? Or perhaps were eggs only created, when on the fifth day, according to the scriptural narrative, the waters brought forth every winged bird according to its kind? If this can be maintained on the ground that in the liquid substance of the eggs there already existed all that grows and develops in the required course of days, because there were already present the numerous reason-principles implanted in an incorporeal manner [so DNA of each creator created not with Genesis or Evolution, but just with "poof"] within corporeal creatures, why could not the same thing have been said before the appearance of eggs, when in the humid element these same reason-principles were produced, from which winged creatures might be born and develop in the time required for the growth of each species?

In this narrative of creation Holy Scripture has said of the Creator that He completed His works in six days; and elsewhere, without contradicting this[HAHA OK SURE ], it has been written of the same Creator that He created all things together. It follows, therefore, that He, who created all things together, simultaneously created these six days, or seven, or rather the one day six or seven times repeated. Why, then, was there any need for six distinct days to be set forth in the narrative one after the other? The reason is that those who cannot understand the meaning of the text, He created all things together, cannot arrive at the meaning of Scripture unless the narrative proceeds slowly step by step.
Smart to deny the literal nature of Genesis, since it is false literally (and I would wager false metaphorically also), but nothing else.

Haha, not a scientific or logical genius on cosmology by a long shot. Augustine prefers here the STATIC MODEL OF CREATION, the opposite of Genesis and the opposite of the Big Bang slow step-by-step Development. The "creation of Eden" did not happen in 7 days to him, but in 1 instant, the birds created as they were, the sky and waters created as they were in an instant, not in one day, and not through millions of years of Evolution.

Ken_N, it seems the Augustin favors the green idea "They are too stupid to know the truth like we know the truth, so we lie to them so they believe us on the important parts!" Sure O.K.

Perhaps science should NEVER take a sophist "clue" from this guy.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 05-18-2019 at 02:43 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top