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Old 06-02-2019, 10:05 PM
 
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That's why we have to decide - do we have a trial according to the evidence or a media trial?
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Old 06-03-2019, 04:53 AM
 
4,312 posts, read 1,605,328 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
That's why we have to decide - do we have a trial according to the evidence or a media trial?
I think to some extent I agree with it, “we have to decide”.
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Old 06-03-2019, 09:46 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,842 posts, read 3,334,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Jesus taught us that our "sins" were "missing the mark" - really failures to have agape love (mercy and compassion, etc.). We missed the mark so Jesus did it perfectly for us. In that sense, He died for (because of) our sins. A physical rising from the dead was a necessary deception for our ancestors who were absolutely terrified of Spirits. That is why Jesus said there were things they could not yet handle and could only be fed "carnal milk." But we ALL will rise from the dead and be born again as Spirits upon our death, so it isn't as far fetched as you think, Arach.
No - sorry, Mystic, but the story of the crucifixion of Jesus has been distorted from something horrifying to something beautiful. If you look at it from the perspective which it *should* be viewed, you ought to see that it is one of the most disgusting of all religious stories from any religion. Think of it like this:

Let's say you're driving down the street and your cellphone rings. Perhaps, during a fleeting lapse of judgement, you decide to answer it despite the heavy traffic. Worse still, you discover someone texted you and thus, stupidly, you take your eyes off the road to answer the text because, you know, in our day and age even the most banal text message requires an immediate and instantaneous response regardless of what we might be in the middle of.

BAM! Yep, predictably, you managed to slam right into the back of another driver who had stopped to make a left-hand turn. The damage is pretty severe - you hit the other driver hard enough that your car deployed its airbags to prevent you from planting your face in the steering wheel.

You and the other driver both get out of your car presumably to exchange insurance information. You brace yourself, expecting the other driver to be madder than a hornet, angrier than a wet hen. What's worse, the accident was entirely and without a doubt your fault. You have utterly no defense. All you can do is meekly explain what happened and apologize profusely.

Surprisingly, the other driver - we'll simply call him John - was polite enough even if he was a bit stern. As you reach for your wallet to produce your insurance card, John stops you.

"I don't care about the money or the damage to my car," John says with the barest hint of a threat in his voice. "What I do care about is your transgression against the law. You have broken the law by texting and driving. Moreover, when you replied to that text, you *knew* it was wrong - and therefore you put everyone around you in danger."

That just makes you feel even worse. You were focused only on the monetary damages, the inconvenience of being without a car while it is repaired ... it never really occurred to you that you could have killed someone. Again you apologize several times, saying at last, "I hope you can forgive me."

"No," John growls. You look up at him, surprised. John continues, "I can't simply forgive you. You're MysticPhD, right? Yes, I thought so. Your parents, your grandparents, your great grandparents, and so on, going back a thousand generations, have continued to plague my family since time immemorial. I *could* forgive you since I'm capable of that - but I can't. Not unless ..."

John trails off as he motions toward his car. Another man gets out of the vehicle, a man you never noticed was sitting there until now. He looks to be in his 30s - a relatively young man - and John introduces him as Jim, his son.

"The only way I can forgive you for your ... accident ... is if I torture Jim, here, for 3 days and then kill him. Yes, I am willing to sacrifice my only begotten son so that I may forgive you for your rotten driving."

Now - Mystic - if you really had an encounter such as this, what would be going through your head? Well, if you're a sane, well-adjusted, compassionate person, you'd probably be on the verge of panic, right? There's no way you can let this psychopath father torture and murder his own son! Not so that he can bring himself to forgive you for a stupid car accident. No matter whose fault it was, Jim doesn't deserve torture and sacrifice ... right?

So - you'd probably whip out your phone and call the police. And, barring that, you'd most likely try to flag down another driver. But I doubt, Mystic, that you would stand there on the side of the road as John murders his own son - and THEN continue stand there and gape in wonder over how awesome John is for murdering his own son so that he could forgive you. Nor would I expect you to feel somehow beholden to John - that you now owe John your undying commitment, allegiance, obedience, and even worship.

I certainly do NOT think you would be running around telling all of your friends and family members how awesome John is because he murdered his son on the side of the road so that he could forgive you for your horrible crime of hitting his car. In fact, you would probably be traumatized if you had witnessed such a thing - you would not find it some how beautiful, loving, selfless, and wonderful.

I would even go out on a limb here and say that you would tag it for what it is: insane, murderous, horrific, and disgusting. Because it is.

There is absolutely *nothing* good or wonderful about a vain and vindictive being like Yahweh who was simply unable to forgive simply by forgiving and instead had to perform a blood sacrifice in order to find it in his black heart to forgive humanity for breaking a set of rules he created in the first place. It's as if Yahweh is playing by someone else's rules and it is Yahweh who must obey by making a human sacrifice in order to forgive.

That's not even considering - what exactly changed when Jesus was crucified? Oh, right - *NOTHING*.

People still suffered and died. There were still wars, there were still diseases, there was still mass starvation, there were still famines and draughts, there were still natural disasters - and the world went on as it had been since the inception of life on this planet. Not even the specific punishments God laid out against humanity in the Garden of Eden were lifted: childbearing still hurts like hell, we still have to farm for our food, serpents still don't have any feet, and there is still plenty of sin - not to mention the fact that we don't live 900 years nor were we ever allowed back into the Garden of Eden.

It truly mystifies me why anyone can say that we were forgiven for anything when absolutely nothing changed with the crucifixion ... or should I say ... crucifiction. Because that's what it is. Otherwise, the day Jesus died should have heralded a new beginning for humanity - except it didn't. And everyone's humdrum life continued on as before without even a sliver of change. In fact, 99.999999% of the people on earth had never even heard of Jesus - and even if some civilization in Central America *had* heard of him somehow, why would they care if he was crucified? They would care about as much as you care now if you hear about someone dying in Palestine today. Tragic and sad, yes, and then you go on with life and forget all about it in just a few hours.

So not only is the commission of a blood human sacrifice disgusting, depraved and immoral - the sacrifice didn't do a damn thing. Literally nothing.
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Old 06-03-2019, 12:15 PM
 
5,797 posts, read 2,252,842 times
Reputation: 2176
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
I don’t understand
Why should anyone convince you?
The onus is on those trying to impose their religious beliefs upon society through jaws and customs to 0rove that thete is any reason to d9 so.

Those who belief in a God or a certain religion but believe it is an personal matter and do n9t attempt to impose their religious beliefs onto others have no requirements to prove their faith.

An example is if you think creationism is correct no big deal however once you push for it to be taught in school science, proof for your belief is required.

I personally do not view you as one pushing your beliefs upon others or even claiming that only those who Sagres with you are correct hence I would not think you need to prove anything. Other posters call other religions false, and feel free to attack non believers, LBGT folks and science. Their opinions are opinions not facts and are open to being challenged.

You use your religion as a tool, theY 7se it as a weapon.
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Old 06-03-2019, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,637 posts, read 2,842,085 times
Reputation: 2860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
No - sorry, Mystic, but the story of the crucifixion of Jesus has been distorted from something horrifying to something beautiful. If you look at it from the perspective which it *should* be viewed, you ought to see that it is one of the most disgusting of all religious stories from any religion. Think of it like this:

Let's say you're driving down the street and your cellphone rings. Perhaps, during a fleeting lapse of judgement, you decide to answer it despite the heavy traffic. Worse still, you discover someone texted you and thus, stupidly, you take your eyes off the road to answer the text because, you know, in our day and age even the most banal text message requires an immediate and instantaneous response regardless of what we might be in the middle of.

BAM! Yep, predictably, you managed to slam right into the back of another driver who had stopped to make a left-hand turn. The damage is pretty severe - you hit the other driver hard enough that your car deployed its airbags to prevent you from planting your face in the steering wheel.

You and the other driver both get out of your car presumably to exchange insurance information. You brace yourself, expecting the other driver to be madder than a hornet, angrier than a wet hen. What's worse, the accident was entirely and without a doubt your fault. You have utterly no defense. All you can do is meekly explain what happened and apologize profusely.

Surprisingly, the other driver - we'll simply call him John - was polite enough even if he was a bit stern. As you reach for your wallet to produce your insurance card, John stops you.

"I don't care about the money or the damage to my car," John says with the barest hint of a threat in his voice. "What I do care about is your transgression against the law. You have broken the law by texting and driving. Moreover, when you replied to that text, you *knew* it was wrong - and therefore you put everyone around you in danger."

That just makes you feel even worse. You were focused only on the monetary damages, the inconvenience of being without a car while it is repaired ... it never really occurred to you that you could have killed someone. Again you apologize several times, saying at last, "I hope you can forgive me."

"No," John growls. You look up at him, surprised. John continues, "I can't simply forgive you. You're MysticPhD, right? Yes, I thought so. Your parents, your grandparents, your great grandparents, and so on, going back a thousand generations, have continued to plague my family since time immemorial. I *could* forgive you since I'm capable of that - but I can't. Not unless ..."

John trails off as he motions toward his car. Another man gets out of the vehicle, a man you never noticed was sitting there until now. He looks to be in his 30s - a relatively young man - and John introduces him as Jim, his son.

"The only way I can forgive you for your ... accident ... is if I torture Jim, here, for 3 days and then kill him. Yes, I am willing to sacrifice my only begotten son so that I may forgive you for your rotten driving."


....
Brilliant!

You have verbalized my conceptual thinking on this 'dying on the cross' thing in a way I could never have done.

And of course;
Quote:
what exactly changed when Jesus was crucified? Oh, right - *NOTHING*
Exactly right.

And I had a rep for you. (I'm usually out of reps).
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Old 06-03-2019, 05:14 PM
 
39,767 posts, read 26,587,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
No - sorry, Mystic, but the story of the crucifixion of Jesus has been distorted from something horrifying to something beautiful. If you look at it from the perspective which it *should* be viewed, you ought to see that it is one of the most disgusting of all religious stories from any religion. Think of it like this:

Let's say you're driving down the street and your cellphone rings. Perhaps, during a fleeting lapse of judgement, you decide to answer it despite the heavy traffic. Worse still, you discover someone texted you and thus, stupidly, you take your eyes off the road to answer the text because, you know, in our day and age even the most banal text message requires an immediate and instantaneous response regardless of what we might be in the middle of.

BAM! Yep, predictably, you managed to slam right into the back of another driver who had stopped to make a left-hand turn. The damage is pretty severe - you hit the other driver hard enough that your car deployed its airbags to prevent you from planting your face in the steering wheel.

You and the other driver both get out of your car presumably to exchange insurance information. You brace yourself, expecting the other driver to be madder than a hornet, angrier than a wet hen. What's worse, the accident was entirely and without a doubt your fault. You have utterly no defense. All you can do is meekly explain what happened and apologize profusely.

Surprisingly, the other driver - we'll simply call him John - was polite enough even if he was a bit stern. As you reach for your wallet to produce your insurance card, John stops you.

"I don't care about the money or the damage to my car," John says with the barest hint of a threat in his voice. "What I do care about is your transgression against the law. You have broken the law by texting and driving. Moreover, when you replied to that text, you *knew* it was wrong - and therefore you put everyone around you in danger."

That just makes you feel even worse. You were focused only on the monetary damages, the inconvenience of being without a car while it is repaired ... it never really occurred to you that you could have killed someone. Again you apologize several times, saying at last, "I hope you can forgive me."

"No," John growls. You look up at him, surprised. John continues, "I can't simply forgive you. You're MysticPhD, right? Yes, I thought so. Your parents, your grandparents, your great grandparents, and so on, going back a thousand generations, have continued to plague my family since time immemorial. I *could* forgive you since I'm capable of that - but I can't. Not unless ..."

John trails off as he motions toward his car. Another man gets out of the vehicle, a man you never noticed was sitting there until now. He looks to be in his 30s - a relatively young man - and John introduces him as Jim, his son.

"The only way I can forgive you for your ... accident ... is if I torture Jim, here, for 3 days and then kill him. Yes, I am willing to sacrifice my only begotten son so that I may forgive you for your rotten driving."

Now - Mystic - if you really had an encounter such as this, what would be going through your head? Well, if you're a sane, well-adjusted, compassionate person, you'd probably be on the verge of panic, right? There's no way you can let this psychopath father torture and murder his own son! Not so that he can bring himself to forgive you for a stupid car accident. No matter whose fault it was, Jim doesn't deserve torture and sacrifice ... right?

So - you'd probably whip out your phone and call the police. And, barring that, you'd most likely try to flag down another driver. But I doubt, Mystic, that you would stand there on the side of the road as John murders his own son - and THEN continue stand there and gape in wonder over how awesome John is for murdering his own son so that he could forgive you. Nor would I expect you to feel somehow beholden to John - that you now owe John your undying commitment, allegiance, obedience, and even worship.

I certainly do NOT think you would be running around telling all of your friends and family members how awesome John is because he murdered his son on the side of the road so that he could forgive you for your horrible crime of hitting his car. In fact, you would probably be traumatized if you had witnessed such a thing - you would not find it some how beautiful, loving, selfless, and wonderful.

I would even go out on a limb here and say that you would tag it for what it is: insane, murderous, horrific, and disgusting. Because it is.

There is absolutely *nothing* good or wonderful about a vain and vindictive being like Yahweh who was simply unable to forgive simply by forgiving and instead had to perform a blood sacrifice in order to find it in his black heart to forgive humanity for breaking a set of rules he created in the first place. It's as if Yahweh is playing by someone else's rules and it is Yahweh who must obey by making a human sacrifice in order to forgive.

That's not even considering - what exactly changed when Jesus was crucified? Oh, right - *NOTHING*.

People still suffered and died. There were still wars, there were still diseases, there was still mass starvation, there were still famines and draughts, there were still natural disasters - and the world went on as it had been since the inception of life on this planet. Not even the specific punishments God laid out against humanity in the Garden of Eden were lifted: childbearing still hurts like hell, we still have to farm for our food, serpents still don't have any feet, and there is still plenty of sin - not to mention the fact that we don't live 900 years nor were we ever allowed back into the Garden of Eden.

It truly mystifies me why anyone can say that we were forgiven for anything when absolutely nothing changed with the crucifixion ... or should I say ... crucifixion. Because that's what it is. Otherwise, the day Jesus died should have heralded a new beginning for humanity - except it didn't. And everyone's humdrum life continued on as before without even a sliver of change. In fact, 99.999999% of the people on earth had never even heard of Jesus - and even if some civilization in Central America *had* heard of him somehow, why would they care if he was crucified? They would care about as much as you care now if you hear about someone dying in Palestine today. Tragic and sad, yes, and then you go on with life and forget all about it in just a few hours.

So not only is the commission of a blood human sacrifice disgusting, depraved and immoral - the sacrifice didn't do a damn thing. Literally nothing.
I am always honored (and find it enjoyable, too) to receive a Shirina shellacking!I can find nothing to criticize about your rendering of the corrupt and irrational reasoning currently employed by mainstream Christian religions, especially the blood sacrifice to appease God nonsense. But that is a human failure to understand what really transpired and needed to transpire. I disagree that it achieved nothing. If we can believe that Jesus truly DID continue to have love and forgiveness toward even His torturers and murderers, He embodied the perfect Maitri espoused by Buddha and other previous Saviors/Avatars by actually overcoming even His unconscious human nature and reactions under severe scourging and death. This represents a HUMAN consciousness that embodies and epitomizes the Holy Spirit of Agape love described and attributed to God and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. As far as we know, no other HUMAN consciousness ever came close. I aver that His accomplishment perfectly resonated (Identity) with God's consciousness and connected ALL human consciousness to God (something we can presume did not exist pre-Jesus). You and your participation are deeply appreciated, Shirina. I hope your chronic pain is managed. You are definitely in my prayers (thoughts, if you prefer) ~Mystic
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Old 06-04-2019, 02:23 PM
 
34 posts, read 5,994 times
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Lightbulb No More Death Cults

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
I would even go out on a limb here and say that you would tag it for what it is: insane, murderous, horrific, and disgusting. Because it is.

There is absolutely *nothing* good or wonderful about a vain and vindictive being like Yahweh who was simply unable to forgive simply by forgiving and instead had to perform a blood sacrifice in order to find it in his black heart to forgive humanity for breaking a set of rules he created in the first place. It's as if Yahweh is playing by someone else's rules and it is Yahweh who must obey by making a human sacrifice in order to forgive.

That's not even considering - what exactly changed when Jesus was crucified? Oh, right - *NOTHING*.

People still suffered and died. There were still wars, there were still diseases, there was still mass starvation, there were still famines and draughts, there were still natural disasters - and the world went on as it had been since the inception of life on this planet. Not even the specific punishments God laid out against humanity in the Garden of Eden were lifted: childbearing still hurts like hell, we still have to farm for our food, serpents still don't have any feet, and there is still plenty of sin - not to mention the fact that we don't live 900 years nor were we ever allowed back into the Garden of Eden.

It truly mystifies me why anyone can say that we were forgiven for anything when absolutely nothing changed with the crucifixion ... or should I say ... crucifiction. Because that's what it is. Otherwise, the day Jesus died should have heralded a new beginning for humanity - except it didn't. And everyone's humdrum life continued on as before without even a sliver of change. In fact, 99.999999% of the people on earth had never even heard of Jesus - and even if some civilization in Central America *had* heard of him somehow, why would they care if he was crucified? They would care about as much as you care now if you hear about someone dying in Palestine today. Tragic and sad, yes, and then you go on with life and forget all about it in just a few hours.

So not only is the commission of a blood human sacrifice disgusting, depraved and immoral - the sacrifice didn't do a damn thing. Literally nothing.
Actually, the one thing that did change was a man who knew how to solve every problem on earth including aging and death, teaching how to attain everlasting life was murdered and replaced by a book of lies propagated by a pedophile death cult that deceives people into worshiping death.

Having started a church where we only focus on understanding and walking the path, I get judged profusely by Christians for not accepting their death doctrines as a cult because I choose to value life vs. worship death like a cult, and so they project themselves onto others. So I created this picture/meme to put their perspective into perspective for them and to help them understand visually why I choose not to be a christian. Nothing positive can come from death. Death is causes by satan. If one values death in any way, that makes them a worshiper of satan by their own actions.


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Old 06-06-2019, 12:41 AM
 
38,719 posts, read 10,657,526 times
Reputation: 5064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
No - sorry, Mystic, but the story of the crucifixion of Jesus has been distorted from something horrifying to something beautiful. If you look at it from the perspective which it *should* be viewed, you ought to see that it is one of the most disgusting of all religious stories from any religion. Think of it like this:

Let's say you're driving down the street and your cellphone rings. Perhaps, during a fleeting lapse of judgement, you decide to answer it despite the heavy traffic. Worse still, you discover someone texted you and thus, stupidly, you take your eyes off the road to answer the text because, you know, in our day and age even the most banal text message requires an immediate and instantaneous response regardless of what we might be in the middle of.

BAM! Yep, predictably, you managed to slam right into the back of another driver who had stopped to make a left-hand turn. The damage is pretty severe - you hit the other driver hard enough that your car deployed its airbags to prevent you from planting your face in the steering wheel.

You and the other driver both get out of your car presumably to exchange insurance information. You brace yourself, expecting the other driver to be madder than a hornet, angrier than a wet hen. What's worse, the accident was entirely and without a doubt your fault. You have utterly no defense. All you can do is meekly explain what happened and apologize profusely.

Surprisingly, the other driver - we'll simply call him John - was polite enough even if he was a bit stern. As you reach for your wallet to produce your insurance card, John stops you.

"I don't care about the money or the damage to my car," John says with the barest hint of a threat in his voice. "What I do care about is your transgression against the law. You have broken the law by texting and driving. Moreover, when you replied to that text, you *knew* it was wrong - and therefore you put everyone around you in danger."

That just makes you feel even worse. You were focused only on the monetary damages, the inconvenience of being without a car while it is repaired ... it never really occurred to you that you could have killed someone. Again you apologize several times, saying at last, "I hope you can forgive me."

"No," John growls. You look up at him, surprised. John continues, "I can't simply forgive you. You're MysticPhD, right? Yes, I thought so. Your parents, your grandparents, your great grandparents, and so on, going back a thousand generations, have continued to plague my family since time immemorial. I *could* forgive you since I'm capable of that - but I can't. Not unless ..."

John trails off as he motions toward his car. Another man gets out of the vehicle, a man you never noticed was sitting there until now. He looks to be in his 30s - a relatively young man - and John introduces him as Jim, his son.

"The only way I can forgive you for your ... accident ... is if I torture Jim, here, for 3 days and then kill him. Yes, I am willing to sacrifice my only begotten son so that I may forgive you for your rotten driving."

Now - Mystic - if you really had an encounter such as this, what would be going through your head? Well, if you're a sane, well-adjusted, compassionate person, you'd probably be on the verge of panic, right? There's no way you can let this psychopath father torture and murder his own son! Not so that he can bring himself to forgive you for a stupid car accident. No matter whose fault it was, Jim doesn't deserve torture and sacrifice ... right?

So - you'd probably whip out your phone and call the police. And, barring that, you'd most likely try to flag down another driver. But I doubt, Mystic, that you would stand there on the side of the road as John murders his own son - and THEN continue stand there and gape in wonder over how awesome John is for murdering his own son so that he could forgive you. Nor would I expect you to feel somehow beholden to John - that you now owe John your undying commitment, allegiance, obedience, and even worship.

I certainly do NOT think you would be running around telling all of your friends and family members how awesome John is because he murdered his son on the side of the road so that he could forgive you for your horrible crime of hitting his car. In fact, you would probably be traumatized if you had witnessed such a thing - you would not find it some how beautiful, loving, selfless, and wonderful.

I would even go out on a limb here and say that you would tag it for what it is: insane, murderous, horrific, and disgusting. Because it is.

There is absolutely *nothing* good or wonderful about a vain and vindictive being like Yahweh who was simply unable to forgive simply by forgiving and instead had to perform a blood sacrifice in order to find it in his black heart to forgive humanity for breaking a set of rules he created in the first place. It's as if Yahweh is playing by someone else's rules and it is Yahweh who must obey by making a human sacrifice in order to forgive.

That's not even considering - what exactly changed when Jesus was crucified? Oh, right - *NOTHING*.

People still suffered and died. There were still wars, there were still diseases, there was still mass starvation, there were still famines and draughts, there were still natural disasters - and the world went on as it had been since the inception of life on this planet. Not even the specific punishments God laid out against humanity in the Garden of Eden were lifted: childbearing still hurts like hell, we still have to farm for our food, serpents still don't have any feet, and there is still plenty of sin - not to mention the fact that we don't live 900 years nor were we ever allowed back into the Garden of Eden.

It truly mystifies me why anyone can say that we were forgiven for anything when absolutely nothing changed with the crucifixion ... or should I say ... crucifiction. Because that's what it is. Otherwise, the day Jesus died should have heralded a new beginning for humanity - except it didn't. And everyone's humdrum life continued on as before without even a sliver of change. In fact, 99.999999% of the people on earth had never even heard of Jesus - and even if some civilization in Central America *had* heard of him somehow, why would they care if he was crucified? They would care about as much as you care now if you hear about someone dying in Palestine today. Tragic and sad, yes, and then you go on with life and forget all about it in just a few hours.

So not only is the commission of a blood human sacrifice disgusting, depraved and immoral - the sacrifice didn't do a damn thing. Literally nothing.
One of your best. It flags up why -in Christian theological terms - it makes no sense at all in and ethics of reason of the kind that this god was supposed to have given us - only if God's 'nature' is such that the 'god -given' rules of morality have almost nothing to do with God's morality (and thus, nature). It reminded me of an animation showing this kind of logic in a court of law where the judge forgave any criminal who confessed and repented after the guards gave his son a beating -up. I would post it, but the violence is pretty graphic.

I won't comment on Mystic's reply except to echo his wishes for your well - being and save the prayers.
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Old 06-12-2019, 01:26 PM
 
38,719 posts, read 10,657,526 times
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Default some points on proof.

The Zozimus thread being closed (glad to know that 'Universe is God' threads can be closed..I'm sick of the argument) I'll post the point here (more general, more punters, more contributions to MakeArqRich.com) because of the argument from fluffy dice. And I have seen worse ones.

I just pointed out that the claim itself wasn't unbelievable. If he said he's hung them in his John I'd be more skeptical. It's not what people usually do. Car- display is common, so even while not actually knowing for sure (agnostic basis) the claim itself is perfectly credible. If he's said that he had a dragon in the jump -seat, doubt would be legitimate. If he said that the fluffy dice had belonged to Crazy Horse, the historical evidence would be against it.

It's not 'believe or not' (much less 'True unless you can disprove it') but the range of evidence weighting credibility.

It isn't about Personal verification of how many people agree with his claim (appeal to numbers) or a personal refusal to have fluffy dice in my car (accusation of bias). It's about how credible the claim is. Bananas are often kept in drawers (I keep one in My drawers to impress the ladies) is a credible claim. an empty drawer actually is negative evidence that effectively disproves the claim.

'evidence of absence' (habitually misunderstood and misused) in that case (where there are no 'gaps for Banana') is pretty convincing, and invisible, spiritual or metaphorical bananas are (in 'Concrete Thinker' terms), non -existent. Nor do bananas beyond the universe or outside of time and space have any interest for us (in fact 'have you looked everywhere in the universe?') ought to be a fallacy, if it isn't already one) . It is bananas in Our world that is the subject of evidence.

Negative evidence/Argument from silence is convincing where the parameters are all known (the Holmes dictum works here) but where the parameters are wide open, we can't say it disproves anything - but we can say that the claim of existence has not met it's burden of proof) Sagan used the term in relation to the universe, which is so huge and unexplored that the absence of any sign of life off -world is not proof that there is none.

Archaeology knows that a claim that a people were Here (for instance Egypt in the times of Exodus)around 11th c BC having the objection that there isn't a scrap of decent evidence to support that claim. is open to the excuse that 'the evidence hasn't been found yet'. And yet, it's no more 'believe or not' than the fluffy dice or the banana. It's about the evidence.

The Exodus in itself is full of miracles. That's beside the point. Leave it to Wyatt to go finding bits of the True cross (1). But skeptics won't rule out Some historical truth there, not for the exodus, the Seige (s) of Jerusalem the nativity (s) and resurrection (s). But what has actually happened is that the evidence that has emerged has turned against the Exodus. Like the claimant said that his fluffy dice were in the front of his blue Honda Prius, and there the photo is in the back of a red one ( 2). Second, he mentioned buying them the other day in a Gas station, but now we found out that he was banned from driving for a year.
The equivalent is that the logistics and archaeology is all against the 'hebrew slaves' story being likely. Factors such of the nature of the Egyptian workforce, a mention of 'israel' (in Merneptah's Canaan campaign) before the Philistines even arrived, where exodus claims that they went into Sinai to avoid the Philistines, and the archaeology is rather turning against a 'conquest' at all means that the evidence is against an Exodus as surely as the 'negative' evidence is turning against an intelligent Cosmic being showing any sign of being involved in anything at all.

If Mr X wants to claim his dragon in the Jump -seat we don't care that we can't disprove it (as he knows) because nobody else will believe it. If he wants us to believe it, He has the burden of proof - not the disbelievers. It's the same with God, and the fact that a person has Faith in the Dragon in his jumpseat is irrelevant. Just as it would be irrelevant to the argument if fifty billion people also believed in it, voted presidents in if they declared believed in it and demanded that Dragons be taught as real in the science -class. The believers would have the political Clout, sure, but that wouldn't do a darn thing to make their claim credible, whether dragons, Santa or God. And comparing an invisible dragon with the invisible god is also irrelevant, as indeed are most of the arguments we get supporting Its claimed existence.

(1) the 'calf altar' photo is knowingly edited to look convincing. It is a photoshopped equivalent of quotemining - fiddling the evidence to fool people -as he must have known. The 'Solomon pillar' story is just that - a claim with no actual evidence. In fact, what there is rather counts against the story - a 'transcript' but without a copy of the inscription. A bare column from which the presumed inscription has been 'eroded away, )

(2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qahB7mYhLxs

Not how right away the cartheist puts a strawman in her mouth 'Are you saying that...? No. That's not her argument at all. It's pushing the burden of proof onto her. It's a compendium of fiddled arguments and inverted logic.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-12-2019 at 02:08 PM..
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:06 PM
 
13,044 posts, read 4,893,343 times
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your sick of the argument that people can look at and say "yeah, that make sense". it shuts your sect of atheism down as gibberish.
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