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Old 05-27-2019, 05:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
How does science conflict with the idea that God exists outside time as we know it?
that isn't the what I am addressing.

I am saying we don't know of anything that exist out side of our universe. So why base any of the traits of your god on what is not known?

isn't it better to assign traits to your god that match observation?

The best claim we have is that you're god would have been born with the universe. That's really one the best position(s) we have today.

the question is why would, or do you have to, reject that idea?
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Old 05-27-2019, 05:25 PM
Status: "Roaming around your head-nothing here to see." (set 2 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
16,365 posts, read 8,905,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
No. It's not my position, so I can't do it justice. I'm just telling you that I've heard that put forth. A more common view is that god used the big bang to create the universe. You can Google if you want.
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Old 05-27-2019, 05:27 PM
Status: "Roaming around your head-nothing here to see." (set 2 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
16,365 posts, read 8,905,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
that isn't the what I am addressing.

I am saying we don't know of anything that exist out side of our universe. So why base any of the traits of your god on what is not known?

isn't it better to assign traits to your god that match observation?

The best claim we have is that you're god would have been born with the universe. That's really one the best position(s) we have today.

the question is why would, or do you have to, reject that idea?
Why is that the best claim? Who/what gave birth to God?
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Old 05-27-2019, 05:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
This would be my advice on answering this question...

Well, rather than being on the outside looking in...meaning using the intellect to figure this question out...
go to the source....go inside...know God...know His Nature, His Mind...
understand Him yourselves and it will all become clear. Forget books.
Have a direct experience of God or whatever you'd like to call the Creator, personally.
Bingo.
Be still.
well, lets not forget books. there is no need to relearn everything. But your point is valid.
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Old 05-27-2019, 05:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Why is that the best claim? Who/what gave birth to God?
first, I said one of the best claims.

we don't know first cause. But the, to steal a phrase, brute fact is we are here now and it looks like we are in a system of life. I say its one of the best we have because to say we are in a system of non-life just does not, in any way, match observation.

we have no idea what started this universe, so why make a claim other than "I believe something started it."
There is nothing to really question from that point. That starting point is totally valid.

but my real question is jimmie, what is wrong with saying your god was born with the universe?
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Old 05-27-2019, 05:56 PM
Status: "Roaming around your head-nothing here to see." (set 2 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
16,365 posts, read 8,905,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
first, I said one of the best claims.

we don't know first cause. But the, to steal a phrase, brute fact is we are here now and it looks like we are in a system of life. I say its one of the best we have because to say we are in a system of non-life just does not, in any way, match observation.

we have no idea what started this universe, so why make a claim other than "I believe something started it."
There is nothing to really question from that point. That starting point is totally valid.

but my real question is jimmie, what is wrong with saying your god was born with the universe?
I’m good with that basic claim. Personally, I believe in the Christian God because I see humanity played out the way Christianity says: Man is flawed but God is love. Other religions require man to attain a level of morality unattainable.

If God was born from another source, then He really isn’t God. The creator is always greater than the created. Therefore, it is feasible that our creator exists on a higher plane than we humans.
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Old 05-27-2019, 05:59 PM
Status: "Roaming around your head-nothing here to see." (set 2 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
16,365 posts, read 8,905,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
first, I said one of the best claims.

we don't know first cause. But the, to steal a phrase, brute fact is we are here now and it looks like we are in a system of life. I say its one of the best we have because to say we are in a system of non-life just does not, in any way, match observation.

we have no idea what started this universe, so why make a claim other than "I believe something started it."
There is nothing to really question from that point. That starting point is totally valid.

but my real question is jimmie, what is wrong with saying your god was born with the universe?
No, you said the best claim... (post #81)
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:00 PM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,004,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
I’m good with that basic claim. Personally, I believe in the Christian God because I see humanity played out the way Christianity says: Man is flawed but God is love. Other religions require man to attain a level of morality unattainable.

If God was born from another source, then He really isn’t God. The creator is always greater than the created. Therefore, it is feasible that our creator exists on a higher plane than we humans.
yeah, thats the next question, why does it have to be anything other than what it is?

you are not human because you were born from another source? does it make you less human?
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:03 PM
Status: "Roaming around your head-nothing here to see." (set 2 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
16,365 posts, read 8,905,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
yeah, thats the next question, why does it have to be anything other than what it is?

you are not human because you were born from another source? does it make you less human?
I believe humans were created by a higher power. From that point we beget more humans.
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:08 PM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,004,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
No, you said the best claim... (post #81)
you are correct, my bad. let me correct it by saying its one of the best claims we have.

its certifiably better than deny-everything so theist can't use it and make atheism harder to sell. that one and died and rised for our sins aint even close to the most rational stances.
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