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Old 05-29-2019, 08:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
That's because they are "righteous" according to the gospels. That should be taken as tongue in cheek I believe, at times when you see that word in the gospels.

That is why heaven rejoices at 1 repentant sinner more than 99 righteous people. The secret message is that they are all sinners, but just aren't aware of it yet.
If God only allows that 1 repentant sinner into heaven, then God's laws have a point. But if those 99 righteous people still got into heaven after living an entire life being oblivious to their sinful ways, in other words, they lived the way they wanted, then God's laws are pretty pointless. I suspect the vast majority of Christians live as the 99 do. I tried to be that 1 repentant sinner and life pretty much sucked. It was a life of fear.
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
If God only allows that 1 repentant sinner into heaven, then God's laws have a point. But if those 99 righteous people still got into heaven after living an entire life being oblivious to their sinful ways, in other words, they lived the way they wanted, then God's laws are pretty pointless. I suspect the vast majority of Christians live as the 99 do. I tried to be that 1 repentant sinner and life pretty much sucked. It was a life of fear.
I don't read that much into it. It was just like an expression, I believe. With exaggeration.
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
Pride is a 'bs' word. Has a gazillion connotations. "Take pride in your work". "Show some pride". "Don't you have any pride", "too much pride" and on and on.
Quite true. A 'B-s' word - "blunderbuss". it has many uses. But there's a specific religious dogmatic usage here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
Well said, Phetaroi.



I am sorry to put you on the spot, Transponder. I knew to expect a fair response from you so I felt okay to disagree.

Actually, the emotion pride is listed under "green" in the system used at my daughter's school. I asked her to check for me and report to me later. "Green" is an ideal color for a person to be at. So having pride is a positive feeling and not a behavior. But I wouldn't push my luck with a Christian.
I like being put on the spot. It makes me evaluate my thinking. As I said, there's a specific theological meaning here. And there's self -pride which can be dodgy - as indeed national or local or any kind pride. I'd rather be saying fair self value in person, nation and species (1), at the same time valuing the achievements of others, other nations, and - other species The neanderthals weren't such slouches as we think.

But the point here is Pride as a sin and my contention that where it is mis-used is in calling asking questions that the Church would prefer not to be asked 'Pride'. I won't have that.

(1) i'd cite music as an example of this. i'm proud of some of the good work my national fellows have done, but would not dream of deprecating the work of composers of other nations - that would be misused pride. But I feel as much pride in the best work of others as those of mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
That's because they are "righteous" according to the gospels. That should be taken as tongue in cheek I believe, at times when you see that word in the gospels.

That is why heaven rejoices at 1 repentant sinner more than 99 righteous people. The secret message is that they are all sinners, but just aren't aware of it yet.
We all rejoice at a repentant sinner - truly repentant, that is, not just making a show of it. But that is a human act that human social morality rejoices at. If religion concurs with that - fine, we can be in agreement.

But when it becomes theoiogical, it makes me sick, Ozzy. 'repentance' means being sorry that they had doubts and questions, and they gave that up, checked their brain and opted for Faith instead. The only people to rejoice at that are the religious authorities and their followers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Maybe the English language is limited. But there is a certain kind that is associated with arrogance. Or with entitlement. It's what is behind all crime and bad behavior. That is why it is fairly stated in scripture that if a person is guilty of breaking one of God's laws, then he is guilty of all of them. A person in a state of sin could easily violate all of God's law, thinking that he was entitled to do so.
I agree with a certain kind of arrogance that leads to crime and bad behaviour or even worse behavior. But questioning religious claims and beliefs is not one of them. Insisting that the Claims and beliefs of Christianity -or any other religion - is unacceptable is a particular kind or arrogance that is a social crime.

That's why Christians sitting and considering these questions (in part) is all to the good. But without a perceived social change, they wouldn't have done it. Indeed, up until now, they didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
I don't read that much into it. It was just like an expression, I believe. With exaggeration.
Maybe you should have done. It was real enough to Elyn. If it was real to her, it might be something for you to question about, too. But then you have to doubt and question, rather than suppose it's all fine and 'not read too much into it'.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-29-2019 at 10:43 PM..
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Old 05-30-2019, 03:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
I don't read that much into it. It was just like an expression, I believe. With exaggeration.
Yes. I believe this is the case for many Christians. The reason for this is the culture you learned. You see the Bible through a specific lens. My culture saw the Bible through a different lens. This was validated by my daughter failing in reading class (which I did as well all through my schooling years as well as my husband); she read the text through a lens that was shaped by our culture. When I was finally able to understand this, we had to make a choice to change our home culture, which we did because that way of thinking made sense, not better sense, just sense. Applicable Christianity doesn't make sense to me. If that behavioral system in her school I mentioned earlier was not put into place, I don't think we would have ever figured it out. For many of us, we have to be taught how to see the world and ourselves, which is our culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I like being put on the spot. It makes me evaluate my thinking. As I said, there's a specific theological meaning here. And there's self -pride which can be dodgy - as indeed national or local or any kind pride. I'd rather be saying fair self value in person, nation and species (1), at the same time valuing the achievements of others, other nations, and - other species The neanderthals weren't such slouches as we think.

But the point here is Pride as a sin and my contention that where it is mis-used is in calling asking questions that the Church would prefer not to be asked 'Pride'. I won't have that.
Yes. The reason our words fly over heads is because of the lack of shared meaning, which results in a lack of understanding each other. I read a book called "Crucial Conversations'. It focused on the culture within a business. The author mentioned that shared meaning of a word was needed from the top of the company down to the bottom. An atheist is not part of the Christian company.
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Old 05-30-2019, 04:07 AM
 
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But we understand it. Many atheists used to be christians and they understand. The rest listened and learned.

The Christians have not listened to us or learned. They do not want to understand us. They prefer their beliefs about what we are and how we think over asking us, or even listening when we tell them, anyway.
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Old 05-30-2019, 04:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
But we understand it. Many atheists used to be christians and they understand. The rest listened and learned.

The Christians have not listened to us or learned. They do not want to understand us. They prefer their beliefs about what we are and how we think over asking us, or even listening when we tell them, anyway.
I think what I am trying to get as is when you were part of the Christian company, you didn't get to sit at the round table to add in your meaning, for example, to the word pride. You will have less of a chance as an atheist.
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Old 05-30-2019, 04:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
I think what I am trying to get as is when you were part of the Christian company, you didn't get to sit at the round table to add in your meaning, for example, to the word pride. You will have less of a chance as an atheist.
I have been an atheist all my life, and in my minor interactions with Christians, never had anything to say to them. I agree that there seems less chance of them listening to us now - but the point is, that others will.
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Old 05-30-2019, 04:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I agree with a certain kind of arrogance that leads to crime and bad behaviour or even worse behavior. But questioning religious claims and beliefs is not one of them. Insisting that the Claims and beliefs of Christianity -or any other religion - is unacceptable is a particular kind or arrogance that is a social crime.
Maybe you are right. You are such a fine example of wisdom.
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Old 05-30-2019, 04:46 AM
 
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Friends, shall we open a Book on whether that was honest flattery or sarcasm? I'm offering better odds on sarcasm.
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Old 05-30-2019, 05:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Friends, shall we open a Book on whether that was honest flattery or sarcasm? I'm offering better odds on sarcasm.
Just yesterday my daughter asked where "sarcasm" would fall under the colors at school (that we also use at home). We knew it wouldn't fall under "green" which means happy and ready to learn. We concluded that it is not a feeling, but rather a behavior that is a result of feeling "yellow", "blue" or "red." So my only contribution to your book is how a person may have been feeling when they were being sarcastic.
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