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Old 05-28-2019, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,683 posts, read 14,149,039 times
Reputation: 15867

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Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
On a serious note this is a very positive event for both sides.
Positive?

How??

They intend to use this information to manipulate non-believers into believing.
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Old 05-28-2019, 02:24 PM
 
365 posts, read 68,137 times
Reputation: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Positive?

How??

They intend to use this information to manipulate non-believers into believing.
Well, if Vatican's success record in manipulating non-believers into believing since the last such conference in 1969 is anything to go by, I think you can rest easily for now.

Besides, it wasn't Vatican who conducted the research, they are simply offering a platform to present it as it's a fitting subject given that it's 50 years since their first conference. The actual research was carried out by secular institutions, if it's any consolation.
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Old 05-28-2019, 02:36 PM
 
2,928 posts, read 1,527,309 times
Reputation: 3104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
it's rather thought -provoking that these people are having to have conferences to tell them what you saw years ago -you don't have to agree with us in order to be able to live with us. It's only those who believe that only they are Right and all the others really don't deserve to live. They are the ones who need to do the changing - not us.
They're not going to step on any toes by independently declaring nonbelievers are human after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Positive?

How??

They intend to use this information to manipulate non-believers into believing.
I can see this. Christianity is changing. They are sending a different message (at least over here).
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Old 05-28-2019, 02:53 PM
 
365 posts, read 68,137 times
Reputation: 721
Atheists often challenge believers with "Perhaps your convictions aren't that strong if you are threatened by the questions posed by atheism."

Do you really think that the roles are going to be reversed? Is atheism that weak that a single research paper can put some on a defensive?

Edit: I should've said 'Do you think the roles are likely to be reversed?' The original question didn't convey my meaning properly.

Last edited by Itzpapalotl; 05-28-2019 at 03:13 PM..
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Old 05-28-2019, 02:57 PM
 
13,050 posts, read 4,895,919 times
Reputation: 1339
is trans sect of atheism so weak that it has to obscure some science that points to us being part of a larger more complex system then us?

is trans sect of atheism so weak that his iron curtain anti-religious minion has to say that arguing the larger more complex system is a straw man? The minion is so weak he has to stay strictly within "they are wrong" and not venture out into describing how the universe works.

is trans' sect of atheism so weak it can't face down how the universe works on the universes terms? his sect of atheism is so weak he has to boil everything down to "stop evil religion" so that his views remain more valid than they actually are.
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Old 05-29-2019, 03:29 AM
 
38,722 posts, read 10,662,185 times
Reputation: 5064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itzpapalotl View Post
Atheists often challenge believers with "Perhaps your convictions aren't that strong if you are threatened by the questions posed by atheism."

Do you really think that the roles are going to be reversed? Is atheism that weak that a single research paper can put some on a defensive?

Edit: I should've said 'Do you think the roles are likely to be reversed?' The original question didn't convey my meaning properly.
It's rather exemplified by three posts - the one of the social justice discussion - the Church soul -searching, assuming they are not waving the whole thing away and 'Unscriptural'.
My post on some atheist -criticism videos.
Some of the posts by atheists (or so we are told) telling us what's wrong with atheists.

Atheism and atheists don't need to be afraid of criticism. We can make changes and improve. A lot of the stock criticism are simply misrepresentations - we are a Church, a Dogma. we have Holy Books. all balls.

We are aggressive, mocking, rude. We have to be. Being passive, respectful and polite means that we are effectively silenced. The fault is with those who take criticism of their religion Personally.

It has been said that atheism is a 'white man's club'. If it seems like that, it's because blacks and women aren't getting involved. In fact I have seem a LOT of women being very much up front and a lot more black people (is there really no better term for that?) coming out as atheist and hopefully, getting involved.

There may be room for improvement, but there is no barrier (as is somewhat suggested) to that improvement.

Neither is there one to the church (es). if they fail to Improve, it's not because they can't but because they won't. And if they do, it won't alter the basic that Religion on reason and evidence is wrong and atheism is right. So the core issue is something quite different.
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Old 05-29-2019, 07:30 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,060 posts, read 10,271,083 times
Reputation: 20103
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
...

We are aggressive, mocking, rude. We have to be. Being passive, respectful and polite means that we are effectively silenced. The fault is with those who take criticism of their religion Personally.

It has been said that atheism is a 'white man's club'. If it seems like that, it's because blacks and women aren't getting involved. In fact I have seem a LOT of women being very much up front and a lot more black people (is there really no better term for that?) coming out as atheist and hopefully, getting involved.

There may be room for improvement, but there is no barrier (as is somewhat suggested) to that improvement.

Neither is there one to the church (es). if they fail to Improve, it's not because they can't but because they won't. And if they do, it won't alter the basic that Religion on reason and evidence is wrong and atheism is right. So the core issue is something quite different.
1. Yes, to an extent, we do need to be a bit aggressive and even rude. We haven't been in the past, and what has that gotten us -- put in our place (as seen by religionists). Modern media is changing that. And it stings. That's not to say that some of us don't sometimes cross a line, but then again, religionists often have.

2. Interesting. DO we have any data about minorities in the West and atheism?

3. It actually has been quite interesting to observe how change comes to churches. For all their supposed peacefulness, there are bitter divisions within congregations where thy fight to the point that they have to split since they cannot live together in peace. And that is not rare.
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:47 AM
 
38,722 posts, read 10,662,185 times
Reputation: 5064
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
They're not going to step on any toes by independently declaring nonbelievers are human after all.



I can see this. Christianity is changing. They are sending a different message (at least over here).
i suppose I see this as the Church having to adapt or risk losing members. It IS losing members. So either they can attack atheism (there are a lot of videos doing this ) or try to woo those who have drifted into irreligion and try to woo them back.

Hmm. neither of those seem a 'positive' step (for us hellbent satanspawn) on the face it, and yet it is - just because they seem willing to understand rather than just dismiss as Wrong, Sinful and Evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. Yes, to an extent, we do need to be a bit aggressive and even rude. We haven't been in the past, and what has that gotten us -- put in our place (as seen by religionists). Modern media is changing that. And it stings. That's not to say that some of us don't sometimes cross a line, but then again, religionists often have.

2. Interesting. DO we have any data about minorities in the West and atheism?

3. It actually has been quite interesting to observe how change comes to churches. For all their supposed peacefulness, there are bitter divisions within congregations where thy fight to the point that they have to split since they cannot live together in peace. And that is not rare.
Yes. The need to tone it down a bit has been noted, but not to the extent of being silenced. And I have got to say that those who criticised how we sounded were just as unforgiving with what was said even in the politest way.

So trying to satisfy the Religious apologists is never going to work; all that will satisfy them is for us to shut up and go away.

What is a point to note is how we come across to those who might otherwise listen to us. I hardly need reiterate how many 'atheists' have been giving us a lot of stick here because of how we come across (1).There is the broadly overlapping crossing line, if i may get paradoxical about it
Those who are open to doubt and question and may respond better to forceful, direct and humourous arguments (or to believers, arrogant, rude and mocking). So on balance I would rather appeal to those who are willing to listen than worry about those who are going to be offended not only by our tone of voice in debunking the claims of religion, but by our very existence.


(1) bugga it -I Will reiterate it.

There was Vic, who argued cleverly, but with a Totally Theist mindset which (to me) looked like far more than 'arguing the religious side'
Arach, who simply opposes 'our' kind of atheist because he hates Socialism.
The bod who rolled up telling us we weren't 'real atheists' unless we had read Sam Harris' 'letter to america' and then got very fractious when we disagreed that was a criterion for atheism.

And Corporate Cowboy of course who does make a fair argument, but we have reason to disagree with his conclusions.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-29-2019 at 01:03 PM..
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Old 05-29-2019, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,851 posts, read 8,331,133 times
Reputation: 15376
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Yes. The need to tone it down a bit has been noted, but not to the extent of being silenced. And I have got to say that those who criticised how we sounded were just as unforgiving with what was said even in the politest way.

So trying to satisfy the Religious apologists is never going to work; all that will satisfy them is for us to shut up and go away.
Exactly. Like Jeffbase who gets insulted and claims persecution if we disagree with his point of view. There is no possible way to be sufficiently polite and agreeable to Christians like him without disappearing entirely.
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Old 05-29-2019, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
6,703 posts, read 6,122,964 times
Reputation: 5971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
that some types of atheist exhibit the personality traits of a Fundy-think-theist.
Those are the guys who are out there giving the 'believers' a taste of their own medicine.
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