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Old 05-28-2019, 08:54 PM
 
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This is a topic worthy, I think of its own thread because it goes beyond the simple failure of God to answer prayers and goes to "What exactly does God do for Christians, period, when Jesus makes this outlandish promise found in Matthew and Luke that God will do this and do that for you if you just ask Him?"

The dilemma is really quite simple: Jesus makes a firm promise in Matthew 7:7 and Luke 11:9. God doesn't deliver on that promise. We see this in Jesus' actual words:"Ask and it will be given to you...For everyone who asks receives". We see the words. We comprehend the words. We try to put the words into action. We utterly fail because nothing happens. The rational mind arrives at one of three conclusions:

1. Jesus' promise is no good. Jesus is a liar.
2. We're misunderstanding what Jesus is saying.
3. Someone put these words into Jesus mouth.

That's what comes into my mind. So I analyze each conclusion:

1. Jesus was making promises he knew God couldn't keep or that he thought God would keep. Remember, on the cross in Mark's gospel he cried out, "My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me [betrayed me]?" I'll give Jesus the benefit of the doubt and say he was deluded. Jesus really believed God would deliver on his promise made to the people. But realistically, God never had any intention of carrying out such a promise. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt Jesus was just a poor delusional apocalyptic preacher who was no more the son of God or a savior/Messiah than the man in the moon.

2. This is the typical apologist position presented in the links I posted. "You're misunderstanding Jesus' words. What you're asking is not in God's will for you" and "Regardless of what Jesus promised, there is no stipulation in God's words that He has to give you exactly what you ask for. Maybe you have sin in your life which prevents God from fulfilling your request." There are dozens more excuses presents by the excuse-maker/apologists, but the simple truth is Jesus' words do not contain any qualifications. So apologists are left with a conundrum: how to explain to Doubting Thomases that Jesus' promise is good even when it fails 99.999% of the time--.001% allowed for the occasional random positive outcome that looks like God answered the request.

For any person with a brain that operates, not one like what the fundies have that asks no questions no matter how ludicrous the proposition is, this cognitive dissonance between Jesus' words and the disastrous failure of those words has to lead thinking minds invariably to #3:

3. Corrupt churchmen tampered with the gospels and inserted all kinds of goodies into them to get pagans to join the fledgling Christian faith. Didn't matter that the promises were worthless. That could be explained away further down the road. The immediate goal was just to get the pagans signed up to the faith, and the phony promises inserted into Jesus' mouth were hugely successful as membership in the new faith began to multiply. Of course the immediate effect beside the calamitous failure of Jesus' words is that the Bible is NOT the infallible word of God. It is corrupted with evil men's lies and therefore cannot be trusted for anything, even promises of a person's salvation if they place their faith in Jesus.

Paul, recognizing that Jesus' promise was BS and wouldn't work, tried to tone it down without completely dousing it with water. He wrote:
Quote:
"...present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." Philippians 4:6-7
See the wiggle? Paul is no longer promising your request will be answered. Instead he says, "Ask and God will give you peace in your travail." Nothing about God actually granting your request.

Now there is a convenient "out" apologist/excuse-makers can use to wiggle out of Jesus' promise: Jesus wasn't speaking in the metaphysical/supernatural but rather in the philosophical. "If you don't ask for something how can somebody help you? How can a doctor heal you unless you go to him and say, 'Doctor, please treat me' " Jesus may have been speaking in that sense, in which case God has nothing to do with the situation.

That's my take, anyway on this whole apocalyptic failure of the "Ask for anything and God will grant it" issue.
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Old 05-28-2019, 09:22 PM
 
39,765 posts, read 26,587,259 times
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
3. Corrupt churchmen tampered with the gospels and inserted all kinds of goodies into them to get pagans to join the fledgling Christian faith. Didn't matter that the promises were worthless. That could be explained away further down the road. The immediate goal was just to get the pagans signed up to the faith, and the phony promises inserted into Jesus' mouth were hugely successful as membership in the new faith began to multiply. Of course, the immediate effect beside the calamitous failure of Jesus' words is that the Bible is NOT the infallible word of God. It is corrupted with evil men's lies and therefore cannot be trusted for anything, even promises of a person's salvation if they place their faith in Jesus.

Paul, recognizing that Jesus' promise was BS and wouldn't work, tried to tone it down without completely dousing it with water. He wrote:
See the wiggle? Paul is no longer promising your request will be answered. Instead, he says, "Ask and God will give you peace in your travail." Nothing about God actually granting your request.

Now there is a convenient "out" apologist/excuse-makers can use to wiggle out of Jesus' promise: Jesus wasn't speaking in the metaphysical/supernatural but rather in the philosophical. "If you don't ask for something how can somebody help you? How can a doctor heal you unless you go to him and say, 'Doctor, please treat me' " Jesus may have been speaking in that sense, in which case God has nothing to do with the situation.

That's my take, anyway on this whole apocalyptic failure of the "Ask for anything and God will grant it" issue.
It is clear that number 3 is the correct situation, but it is your unwarranted and hyperbolic interpretation that reveals your disappointment, anger, and angst over reality. It seems you REALLY were attracted by and believed in those worldly (carnal) promises big time. Let's take your bold:

the Bible is NOT the infallible word of God. It is corrupted with evil men's lies and therefore cannot be trusted for anything, even promises of a person's salvation if they place their faith in Jesus.

There is NOTHING ever touched or interpreted by humankind that is infallible because we are NOT. Everything written by humankind is subject to corruption, especially over long time spans. But to suggest that it cannot be trusted for ANYTHING is just childish and lazy. It can and does CONTAIN inspirations from God interpreted by fallible men so we CAN discern what is and what is not from God. That is what "study to show yourself approved" means. It doesn't' mean just read it and take everything literally and at face value. If you are unwilling to believe that God inspired or influenced those who wrote anything in the Bible then discard it but this continued onslaught against the promises made is just pointless. Seek some assistance with your angst, Thrill.
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:09 PM
 
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Seek some assistance with your angst, Thrill.
It's good advice, Mystic. But I don't want you and others to misunderstand my "angst". If I have angst it's not with God or Jesus or ultimately with the Bible. It's blaming myself for my stupidity following Christianity for so many years when Christianity was a dismal failure. I don't have angst over Jesus. I forgive him. He was a poor, deluded apocalyptic prophet, a product of his era when the people were looking for such men to lead them out of the chaos that was a daily part of their lives. I don't have angst over God. I forgive Him. If people misunderstand His role in our lives--that He HAS no role in our lives--that is the fault of the churchmen for deceiving us, not God's. I have no angst over the Bible. I never said to throw out the entire book. I've always maintained there's some good stuff in there, but nothing that cannot be found in other holy books. The one central promise the Bible DOES make that we can throw away, I believe, is that JESUS SAVES". He's no more capable of saving a person soul than the man in the moon as I've said. He was just a man who died, and afterwards lots of promises were piled on him that he had no idea about because he was dead as a doornail. That's why it's easy to see that Jesus is nothing more than a mascot for Christianity, like a dolphin is for a certain Miami football team.

So if corrupt churchmen put words of "Ask and you will receive" into Jesus' mouth, then there's a high likelihood that they put words of salvation into his mouth too, like "If ye do not believe in me ye will die in your sins" and "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son; that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life". Why should we believe that? Once a person's credibility as been shot with one false promise shouldn't all his other promises be falsified as well?
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,189 posts, read 10,269,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Jesus makes a firm promise in Matthew 7:7 and Luke 11:9. God doesn't deliver on that promise. We see this in Jesus' actual words:"Ask and it will be given to you...For everyone who asks receives". We see the words. We comprehend the words. We try to put the words into action. We utterly fail because nothing happens. The rational mind arrives at one of three conclusions:

1. Jesus' promise is no good. Jesus is a liar.
2. We're misunderstanding what Jesus is saying.
3. Someone put these words into Jesus mouth.
4. There is/never was any God/ Jesus.
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Old 05-29-2019, 12:39 AM
 
10,166 posts, read 2,602,085 times
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It may come down to whether or not we truly believe God will 'deliver', this may sound crazy, but Ive heard it said, if one truly believes in something they wish for or desire...if that belief that it WILL happen is strong enough...it WILL come to fruition.


I think alot of people ask for things they dont truly expect God to grant them, like a great new job, or to win the lottery, or $100K to magically appear out of nowhere, etc!
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Old 05-29-2019, 02:47 AM
 
38,701 posts, read 10,657,526 times
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Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
It may come down to whether or not we truly believe God will 'deliver', this may sound crazy, but Ive heard it said, if one truly believes in something they wish for or desire...if that belief that it WILL happen is strong enough...it WILL come to fruition.


I think alot of people ask for things they dont truly expect God to grant them, like a great new job, or to win the lottery, or $100K to magically appear out of nowhere, etc!
It sounded to me like you just said 'Jesusgod will grant anything you ask for in faith. If he doesn't..why - you didn't really have faith that he was going to grant it.'

It probably explains why, when Jesus asked to be let off crucifixion, it wasn't granted.
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:04 AM
 
11,109 posts, read 11,190,203 times
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Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
4. There is/never was any God/ Jesus.

Well, this kind of thing comes down to proving a negative--can't be done. I cannot say "There never was a Jesus." Or "There isn't a God" because I can't prove it. What I am pretty certain of and can offer pretty convincing circumstantial evidence of is that Jesus wasn't a god. But that's on the other thread.
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Old 05-29-2019, 03:39 PM
 
10,451 posts, read 15,432,427 times
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"Ask and it will be given to you...For everyone who asks receives".


This is absolute truth. What makes it look as a "lie" is that no one really can match the request and what was provided. Reality is not that linear. Fruits of your "ask" may be so far fetched from what YOU understand them to be, that it makes a human to believe that "god" is not fulfilling.
Also, humans are not mostly honest with themselves. Consciousness has layers and the strongest wish wins. There is rather solid evidence that subconscious is actually much more powerful over a human, than conscious. Hence, when such request is verbalized or thought of, subconscious may provide completely different layer to it. And that is what Reality WILL hear - and provide.

Try this guy - Vadim Zeland, Reality Transurfing. He has very good explanation on how Ask vs Receive works.
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Old 05-29-2019, 04:32 PM
 
39,765 posts, read 26,587,259 times
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
It sounded to me like you just said 'Jesusgod will grant anything you ask for in faith. If he doesn't..why - you didn't really have faith that he was going to grant it.'

It probably explains why, when Jesus asked to be let off crucifixion, it wasn't granted.
I do respect your insight and intellect, Arq. I just wish you weren't so hung up on a failed reductionist materialism. One wonders why with such a clear example of God NOT granting Christ's prayers that anyone would presume theirs would automatically be granted.
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Old 05-29-2019, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,678 posts, read 14,144,272 times
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt Jesus was just a poor delusional apocalyptic preacher who was no more the son of God or a savior/Messiah than the man in the moon.
There's no doubt Jesus was an Essene, and they were viewed as radicals, but he was likely from a more radical sect of Essenes.

The evidence suggests they set out to fake the death of Jesus, then have him "come back to life" and that would make them the top dogs.

Instead of everyone bowing down before the Pharisees and Sadducees, the Pharisees would now bow down before this sect of the Essenes.

You can see that in the texts.

They give Jesus "bitter water." Alkaloids are bitter, and opium, which grows naturally in the region is an alkaloid. Opium and opium-derivatives had been in use for several thousand years. They also knew the antidote was atropine made from the Night Shade plant that grows naturally in the region.

So, Jesus only appears dead, because his heart rate and respiration had been slowed, and in the texts, they make a big deal about not breaking his legs, because if they broke his legs, they'd find out Jesus wasn't really dead, and then they would kill him for real.

Jesus tells Mary Magdalene, "Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended" which is BS.

The real reason is Jesus isn't really dead, and if she touches him, she'll figure that out and she might tell other people, which would ruin everything.

Luke says Jesus disguised himself with a headdress and went walking around town. Eventually, he overhears two men talking and reveals himself to them, but he also realizes the "revolution" was an abject failure.

That's why Jesus flees.

It's also why Jesus doesn't have the courage to show himself before Pilate or the Pharisees, because they would kill him for real.

On the way to India, Saul/Paul catches up with Jesus and his entourage in Damascus.

Later, James, the brother of Jesus, is killed on his way to India.

The reason James was headed to India is because that's where Jesus was, and his mother Mary, and Mary Magdalene and probably Salome and a few of the disciples. The stories about the disciples are contradictory and based largely on legend, not fact, so no one really knows where they actually were. Matthew claims Judas hanged himself, but Acts contradicts Matthew. Peter was designated as the Apostle to the Jews, which begs the question why would Peter go to Rome? And, Clement, who was the Bishop of Rome, didn't even know Peter was in Rome, and in fact attributes the founding of the church in Rome to another, not Peter, so it's highly unlikely Peter died there or founded the church.
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