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Old 06-05-2019, 04:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I agree. But try telling that to the fundies who live and die by what they THINK the Bible is commanding them to do.
so fundie-think distorting what a guy name jesus may have said seems like the real problem.
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Old 06-05-2019, 04:36 PM
 
11,239 posts, read 11,262,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
so fundie-think distorting what a guy name jesus may have said seems like the real problem.
Yes. A man, actually several men named Jesus, probably got crucified circa 0-30 CE. 70-100 years later, Greek anonymous Christians were hearing all these fabulous mythical-sounding tales of this man named Jesus performing miracles and getting crucified. They write their own versions of the events, hence the differences in the nativity and the crucifixion/resurrection. But because they were coping the core elements from each other, the central premise of the story sound similar. Mind you, the writers were borrowing from all sorts of existing tales, legends, myths of other dying/rising gods, Homer's Odyssey. At some point churchmen decided it was important to make this man into a son of God, then fully God. That's why Mark doesn't have Jesus calling himself God, but rather the son of man. But by the time John comes along 50 years after Mark, Jesus is calling himself God.

But there being absolutely no extra-Biblical evidence of this man, Jesus' existence (other than an oft-quoted interpolation into Josephus by 4th century churchman, Eusebius) we cannot establish any of this is true. It's all hearsay, myth, stories circulating for decades--a whole potpourri of sources upon which the Greek writers of the gospels drew upon. So there's distortion of a tremendous magnitude and no way to verify anything except to make up al la Lane Craig's "4 lines of evidence" for the resurrection that are so full of holes they'd sink a battleship. I recently finished debating Mike555 on the "criteria of embarrassment" and tried to demonstrate why it's just apologetic fluff.

A side-note: the reason 30 CE was settled on as the year of Jesus' crucifixion has nothing to do with it actually happening in that year. It has to do with Jewish sages trying to fit Daniel's prophecy of Chapter 9 of the Messiah being "cut off" after 70 weeks of years into the time-frame of Artaxerxes king of Persia commanding the rebuilding of Jerusalem in 457 B.C and then counting forward by 490 years (70 weeks of years or 490 years per Daniel 9:25-26) to arrive at 30 CE or thereabouts which actually works out to 33 CE.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 06-05-2019 at 04:55 PM..
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:04 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,021,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I agree with you, Katzpur. But remember this wasn't the prevailing view 100 years ago. Back then it was the teachings of sadists like Jonathan Edwards with his "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" that dominated Christian thought and nuggets like these:

"There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God."

God may cast wicked men into hell at any given moment.
  1. The wicked deserve to be cast into hell. Divine justice does not prevent God from destroying the Wicked at any moment.
  2. The wicked, at this moment, suffer under God's condemnation to Hell.
  3. The wicked, on earth—at this very moment—suffer a sample of the torments of Hell. The wicked must not think, simply because they are not physically in Hell, that God (in Whose hand the wicked now reside) is not—at this very moment—as angry with them as He is with those miserable creatures He is now tormenting in hell, and who—at this very moment—do feel and bear the fierceness of His wrath.
  4. At any moment God shall permit him, Satan stands ready to fall upon the wicked and seize them as his own.
  5. If it were not for God's restraints, there are, in the souls of wicked men, hellish principles reigning which, presently, would kindle and flame out into hellfire.
  6. Simply because there are not visible means of death before them at any given moment, the wicked should not feel secure.
  7. Simply because it is natural to care for oneself or to think that others may care for them, men should not think themselves safe from God's wrath.
  8. All that wicked men may do to save themselves from Hell's pains shall afford them nothing if they continue to reject Christ.
  9. God has never promised to save us from Hell, except for those contained in Christ through the covenant of Grace.
These points are correct.

The sinner is hell receives justice. The believer whose sin is washed away by Jesus's blood receives mercy. No one receives injustice. Do you want justice or mercy? Why won't you repent and believe in Jesus?
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:08 PM
 
40,053 posts, read 26,735,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
These points are correct.

The sinner is hell receives justice. The believer whose sin is washed away by Jesus's blood receives mercy. No one receives injustice. Do you want justice or mercy? Why won't you repent and believe in Jesus?
Anyone who thinks a Hell of eternal torment in any way represents justice has no clue what justice means, IMO.
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:12 PM
 
4,226 posts, read 2,592,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Anyone who thinks a Hell of eternal torment in any way represents justice has no clue what justice means, IMO.
Hopefully, your post will help to dissuade any futher discussion regarding the matter.
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:19 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,021,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Anyone who thinks a Hell of eternal torment in any way represents justice has no clue what justice means, IMO.
Your ideas of justice are merely humanistic. Sin is committed against the eternal God, so sin carries an eternal punishment. Only Jesus, being the eternal Son of God, could pay the penalty for sin for those who believe in Him. The sinner in hell will forever be paying for, and yet never satisfying, their sin debt.
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:33 PM
 
40,053 posts, read 26,735,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Anyone who thinks a Hell of eternal torment in any way represents justice has no clue what justice means, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
Hopefully, your post will help to dissuade any futher discussion regarding the matter.
False hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Your ideas of justice are merely humanistic. Sin is committed against the eternal God, so sin carries an eternal punishment. Only Jesus, being the eternal Son of God, could pay the penalty for sin for those who believe in Him. The sinner in hell will forever be paying for, and yet never satisfying, their sin debt.
QED
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:33 PM
 
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I was raised Missouri synod Lutheran also. Our minister told us during cathecism that the Bible was a bunch of stories written to help uneducated people understand how to live moral lives.
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:45 PM
 
13,493 posts, read 4,993,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Your ideas of justice are merely humanistic. Sin is committed against the eternal God, so sin carries an eternal punishment. Only Jesus, being the eternal Son of God, could pay the penalty for sin for those who believe in Him. The sinner in hell will forever be paying for, and yet never satisfying, their sin debt.

only jesus can do it? that dont sound right.
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:46 PM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,802 posts, read 13,413,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Your ideas of justice are merely humanistic. Sin is committed against the eternal God, so sin carries an eternal punishment. Only Jesus, being the eternal Son of God, could pay the penalty for sin for those who believe in Him. The sinner in hell will forever be paying for, and yet never satisfying, their sin debt.
You poor, lost soul. You've drunk too deeply of the Kool-Aid.
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