U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-08-2019, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,113 posts, read 10,275,420 times
Reputation: 20122

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post
Badlander...first, and this is not a ploy to gain your favor, your father and his service...wow, how indebted I am to him.

Ok, ...simply put. I'd offer this to anybody...their past, or their current life would make no matter. If God can change me He can change anybody.

The pill analogy was just an attempt (be it effective or not) to illustrate my heart set. Just as I would attempt to reach out to a friend that is physically dying, so to would I do likewise spiritually. As I stated, if I didn't at least try...I'd never forgive myself.

After that? I think I made it clear...it's out of my hands. I don't consider myself to be the "force" that could change anybody's life. But, I do think the message can.

Still, when all is said and done, I say again...it's up to the individual to accept or reject.
You need to convert and accept Buddhism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-08-2019, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,149 posts, read 12,008,996 times
Reputation: 16544
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post

But, as I've stated numerous times... I'll just share. If the person isn't interested or rebuffs me and says "Go away"...I will comply. I will not try to force anything on anybody. And, as equally shared, I can still like you, I could still be your friend, I could still respect you.

Jesus said let those who have ears...hear. I guess I say likewise.
He, Jesus, is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
This sounds fine to me. I understand wanting to share something you think is fabulous!
It is extra special when they see you being consistently happy and wise and loving and
SO content and likable to have them finally ask you...What the heck is your secret, Johnny?

Trust me, they will have SO much more respect for u if they see your little cross and you don't shove something on them...you actually think they have not heard about Jesus?

But, you know what they have NOT SEEN, my friend?
Someone who accepts them and laughs with them just as they are...with no religious stuff brought up.
(Yet they saw your little cross and know u go to New Life Church, cuz u simply mentioned
'this dentist' u met thru N. Life Church.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 02:01 PM
 
105 posts, read 24,767 times
Reputation: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
CV,

The problem is that the pill you believe in cannot be proven. It isn't that you have a pill that you believe will cure all things, rather you have an imaginary pill that you believe will cure an imaginary disease.

Until and unless you can provide compelling evidence for god (specifically your Christian god, the soul, sin, judgment, and an afterlife, your 'pill', or 'pizza' is simply a non-existent thing itself.

It is a bit like the wurflebarg virus remedy. It is really, really, really dangerous to catch the wurflebarg virus. You really don't want it. Trust me. But I know, I really truly believe with all my heart that I know how you can avoid the wurflebarg virus. You simply have to have to do the correct things, just as I tell you. It is important that you do it, but if you choose not to, that is ok by me, but I will be sad when you fall to the wurflebarg virus.

Do you find that compelling in the least? Or do I sound just a bit daft?
Fish, as usual, you make a solid point. Man, I understand the wanting evidence. As I told another poster, I have a brain and it likes to question. "CV," it says, "How can you possibly believe something you can' touch or see? Where's your evidence?"

To that I respond...faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. God is really, really big on the faith/trust thing. Without faith, we are told, it is impossible to please Him.

*sighs* I could debate evidence. I could copy and paste from this website or that website. To which you could counter with your this and that...and so it would go. There are those that are called to be Apologists. I've never felt the calling to be one. My resistance as such could be totally in the wrong for me, this I know. But, in all honesty, I simply lack the time to invest as such and my heart is just not there.

OK, so, to the analytical mind, this is nonsense. I concede that openly. And, I say again...I accept that. To each their own.

And, in the end, as you said, if I refuse your help on the virus, it's on me. I understand how you'd be saddened if I fell to the dreaded disease. I feel likewise from my side of this issue.

You're never daft. Not in the least.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 02:18 PM
 
105 posts, read 24,767 times
Reputation: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
This sounds fine to me. I understand wanting to share something you think is fabulous!
It is extra special when they see you being consistently happy and wise and loving and
SO content and likable to have them finally ask you...What the heck is your secret, Johnny?

Trust me, they will have SO much more respect for u if they see your little cross and you don't shove something on them...you actually think they have not heard about Jesus?

But, you know what they have NOT SEEN, my friend?
Someone who accepts them and laughs with them just as they are...with no religious stuff brought up.
(Yet they saw your little cross and know u go to New Life Church, cuz u simply mentioned
'this dentist' u met thru N. Life Church.)
It has been said..."Preach the Bible everyday. And...sometimes...use words."

There is mega truth and wisdom in that. Walking the walk, or just talking the talk...?

What you allude to is true. I remember a lady stopping me in the hallway one time and saying, "Ok, so I'm going to ask. Are you really human? HOW can you work HERE and still be smiling all the time.."
Open door of opportunity.

Yes indeed, I get that...and I recognize what you mention in the joy and contentment of those times.

But, there are times when I'm challenged to do a bit more. I know you don't put a lot of stock in the Christian Bible (or so I've felt?)...which is fine of course. But, for me...I do. Jesus said, clearly, take this message to the world. There are times this will require me to be a "Peter.". I must step out of the boat of comfort, into the unknown water and see what happens. Maybe "they" have heard about Jesus before. But, maybe just maybe, their life has changed, their heart has softened, and they're ready to hear about Him from me at that moment in time. Or........maybe not. That's not for me to determine.

I don't say this with pride. I honestly understand how Gideon felt...I am the least...of the least. Or, Paul when he said "Oh, what a wretched man am I..."

I just try to do my best. I like and love people. *shrugs* That's the best I can explain.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,853 posts, read 8,334,373 times
Reputation: 15396
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post
Fish, as usual, you make a solid point. Man, I understand the wanting evidence. As I told another poster, I have a brain and it likes to question. "CV," it says, "How can you possibly believe something you can' touch or see? Where's your evidence?"

To that I respond...faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. God is really, really big on the faith/trust thing. Without faith, we are told, it is impossible to please Him.

*sighs* I could debate evidence. I could copy and paste from this website or that website. To which you could counter with your this and that...and so it would go. There are those that are called to be Apologists. I've never felt the calling to be one. My resistance as such could be totally in the wrong for me, this I know. But, in all honesty, I simply lack the time to invest as such and my heart is just not there.

OK, so, to the analytical mind, this is nonsense. I concede that openly. And, I say again...I accept that. To each their own.

And, in the end, as you said, if I refuse your help on the virus, it's on me. I understand how you'd be saddened if I fell to the dreaded disease. I feel likewise from my side of this issue.

You're never daft. Not in the least.
This is where it all breaks down of course. You say that you 'know' that Christianity is true. But when you describe the basis for this knowledge, it all comes down to faith and belief. That simply isn't an adequate foundation to claim knowledge.

You seem to have a strong belief. By your own admission, an irrational, completely unsupported, unsubstantiated, indefensible belief. Yet you claim knowledge and expect people to be receptive to your approach, even if they do not ultimately accept your belief.

Can you see how this puts you in the same category as a sleazy unsolicited sales guy? I get these calls at work all the time. Some guy wants me to buy his services/software/equipment, and he promises that it will save me time, effort, and money. I delete the email or hang up the phone and move on. Why should people treat your approach pitching Christianity any differently? You are asking a person to trust you implicitly, change their life, if only by going to church on Sundays, and yet you offer nothing but a smile and vapor.

Sure, I am not going to yell at the sales guy, and sometimes I will even be polite when hanging up, but the approach is not actually welcomed by me. My response is not going to be as strong as Phetaroi's is, but at its core, my feeling is not substantially different either.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 02:47 PM
 
105 posts, read 24,767 times
Reputation: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
This is where it all breaks down of course. You say that you 'know' that Christianity is true. But when you describe the basis for this knowledge, it all comes down to faith and belief. That simply isn't an adequate foundation to claim knowledge.

You seem to have a strong belief. By your own admission, an irrational, completely unsupported, unsubstantiated, indefensible belief. Yet you claim knowledge and expect people to be receptive to your approach, even if they do not ultimately accept your belief.

Can you see how this puts you in the same category as a sleazy unsolicited sales guy? I get these calls at work all the time. Some guy wants me to buy his services/software/equipment, and he promises that it will save me time, effort, and money. I delete the email or hang up the phone and move on. Why should people treat your approach pitching Christianity any differently? You are asking a person to trust you implicitly, change their life, if only by going to church on Sundays, and yet you offer nothing but a smile and vapor.

Sure, I am not going to yell at the sales guy, and sometimes I will even be polite when hanging up, but the approach is not actually welcomed by me. My response is not going to be as strong as Phetaroi's is, but at its core, my feeling is not substantially different either.
Very well. Point made, point well taken, well stated.

One thing though. I do not expect a person to trust me, implicitly, and change their life on the mere basis of what I share with them. I don't have that power or influence...not in the least.

What I DO hope and pray is that said person will just allow the possibility, to crack the door, to open their heart just a little and let God speak into their life. It's the very same thing in my pizza post. I can only tell about how good the pizza is...it's up to the Chef to convince them. Yes, I'm talking the "S" word...supernatural. That's where God lives, that's where He works. This clashes, harshly, with the natural.

Good enough man. As always, I respect what you say. I truly do. And, there was a time when I would have been firmly in your corner. Yes, we totally disagree but it's all good from my side. I could never hold ill will towards you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 03:18 PM
 
10,414 posts, read 12,671,808 times
Reputation: 3794
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
The christian ego seems to say that you are dumb, we are smart. Do what we tell you.
I've never heard any Christian say anything like that. Or have anything close to that attitude. You're just making that up.

If anything, the world makes fun of Christians for being dumb.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
55,599 posts, read 54,202,806 times
Reputation: 65746
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post
*chuckles* I know of what you speak...oh, yeah...
Yet, all I can say is...that pill wears off eventually. It's a temporary thing.

*nods* Equally back to you...rest in peace.
No, I don't think you know. The little box next to his bed to which he refers contains the ashes of his deceased son. He is saying that your pill could not save him. He took his own life.

And while I think you have good intent, you seem to be hanging on to this idea from one of your posts:

Quote:
What I DO hope and pray is that said person will just allow the possibility, to crack the door, to open their heart just a little and let God speak into their life.
But what if they do and there is nothing but silence? There seems to be an odd belief that if someone says, "Jesus, come into my heart" or asks God to speak to them or something, why, it WILL happen. I once believed that and thought I must be praying incorrectly or something, because life was hell and God wasn't there even though I called upon him over and over again. God seemed only to laugh and flip me the bird.

So very often such a call brings no response. There are crickets. God doesn't seem to like some people very much at all. What will you then tell people when they do listen to you and find out that what you said isn't true for them?

I'm not trying to trick you here. It's a real question. I attend a Christian church, a wonderful community of people who care about one another and who seek answers to questions, but I would never, ever EVER tell someone that my spiritual path and discoveries will work for them, because I know firsthand that that's a lie.

Clutch your pearls, but God's not a Person to me. I think we humans personify God, but that God is something less definable, something sensed on a primal level rather than described in words. The closest I can come to is that-which-connects-us, and I don't mean just humanity. I'm a big fan of Francis of Assisi, whom you attempted to quote above (I think the actual quote is "Preach the gospel [not "the Bible"] at all times, and if necessary, use words", but there's no evidence that Francis ever really said that. )

All you can do is live your life and spirituality as authentically as you can, but don't lie to people and tell them that if they just let God in, their life will change. It may not be true.
__________________
Moderator posts are in RED.
City-Data Terms of Service: http://www.city-data.com/terms.html

Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 06-08-2019 at 04:27 PM.. Reason: I am going blind
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 03:33 PM
 
39,790 posts, read 26,595,443 times
Reputation: 6028
Default The Christian Message...An Analogy

I can understand wanting to minimize the proselytizing of religions, but I am not on board with trying to dissuade anyone from their belief in God. What they believe ABOUT God and what He wants from us can be and often is dangerous and counterproductive to human interactions, but the belief in God is NOT.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,853 posts, read 8,334,373 times
Reputation: 15396
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post
Very well. Point made, point well taken, well stated.

One thing though. I do not expect a person to trust me, implicitly, and change their life on the mere basis of what I share with them. I don't have that power or influence...not in the least.

What I DO hope and pray is that said person will just allow the possibility, to crack the door, to open their heart just a little and let God speak into their life. It's the very same thing in my pizza post. I can only tell about how good the pizza is...it's up to the Chef to convince them. Yes, I'm talking the "S" word...supernatural. That's where God lives, that's where He works. This clashes, harshly, with the natural.

Good enough man. As always, I respect what you say. I truly do. And, there was a time when I would have been firmly in your corner. Yes, we totally disagree but it's all good from my side. I could never hold ill will towards you.
Fair enough.

What about people who have done this, and god has not stepped through the door?

In my teenage years I was quite devout. I really, truly believed. As you say, I was in your corner. As I grew more intellectually curious I started to explore my faith intellectually, not with a desire to overthrow it, but with a desire to more fully understand it. I encountered contradictions, inexplicable logical issues, and conflicts between theology and science. I sought assistance from a priest, as I was RCC. That did not work, so I sought assistance from a pastor. No solutions there either. I explored a variety of other options, with similar results.

I lost my faith, and ultimately became an atheist.

What of my situation then? Using your words, the door to my heart was open. I sought a relationship with god. I wanted it. And ultimately, nothing.

Is this not some evidence against your claims of the supernatural? My story is not unique, so how can this be reconciled with your assertions that if the recipient is willing, god will reveal himself?

I know you do not claim to be an apologist, and you may not have answers, but you are on a discussion board and you have opened the topic for discussion, so I hope that you will consider my post to be fair game.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:38 PM.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top