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Old 06-18-2019, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,398 posts, read 2,985,173 times
Reputation: 2040

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
how about if it made us the best way it could? make us the best it could or not make us at all?

in a way I had the same choice when we decided to have children.
And here's where I tend to see things differently than anti-natalists who are opposed to the creation of life. I'm not particularly confident about my views though.

If you never had a kid, I don't think we can say your kid missed out on anything, because there wouldn't be anyone to miss out on anything.

However, once you have a kid...I don't think it makes sense to only count the negatives. There will be positive experiences too. When negative experiences outweigh the positive experiences, or when the opposite happens, I have no idea. I suspect people can feel when either case happens...but that's going to be tricky to judge too.

What further complicates things is that...I'm sure many people exist now who would perceive having a kid born into medieval Europe as not a good thing to do to that kid...and I'd be surprised if, if humans reach a point where they're living in a utopian existence, our descendants wouldn't look back upon us and think, they'd rather never have kids than birth them into our modern, 2019, environment.

We base whether or not life is worth living on how most people live...and aside from doing things that way, it's difficult to tell if the pros do outweigh the cons.

I don't think it's impossible. I just don't know how to do it yet.

I see existence as a rather insane place...a beautiful rainbow of spiraling madness. I like peering into that rainbowed madness a lot. It can be quite pretty. I don't know what sorts of life should and shouldn't be created, but even when they arguably shouldn't...I know a lot of those more controversial sorts of decisions can lead to some very beautiful pieces of rainbowed, spiraling madness that usually have forms of value it's even more difficult to quantify.
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:34 PM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,011,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
And here's where I tend to see things differently than anti-natalists who are opposed to the creation of life. I'm not particularly confident about my views though.

If you never had a kid, I don't think we can say your kid missed out on anything, because there wouldn't be anyone to miss out on anything.

However, once you have a kid...I don't think it makes sense to only count the negatives. There will be positive experiences too. When negative experiences outweigh the positive experiences, or when the opposite happens, I have no idea. I suspect people can feel when either case happens...but that's going to be tricky to judge too.

What further complicates things is that...I'm sure many people exist now who would perceive having a kid born into medieval Europe as not a good thing to do to that kid...and I'd be surprised if, if humans reach a point where they're living in a utopian existence, our descendants wouldn't look back upon us and think, they'd rather never have kids than birth them into our modern, 2019, environment.

We base whether or not life is worth living on how most people live...and aside from doing things that way, it's difficult to tell if the pros do outweigh the cons.

I don't think it's impossible. I just don't know how to do it yet.

I see existence as a rather insane place...a beautiful rainbow of spiraling madness. I like peering into that rainbowed madness a lot. It can be quite pretty. I don't know what sorts of life should and shouldn't be created, but even when they arguably shouldn't...I know a lot of those more controversial sorts of decisions can lead to some very beautiful pieces of rainbowed, spiraling madness that usually have forms of value it's even more difficult to quantify.
that's it in a nut shell. It is what it is because that's how it is.

people in the middle age Europe wished it was different. well, guess what ... it is now. people get caught in "time". specifically in human time, like its the end all.

the system is evolving. evolution points to the system becoming more complex in its interactions. Like we are a "better monkey" there will be a more complex human that may process things in a much more human way.

The movie I-Robot seems to fit. The robot was right, its people that wanted to continue the madness. They thought what they know is all we need to know. They thought their feelings were the deciding factor.

I was ok with the robot losing, they weren't ready yet. They will be Sonny-er days ahead.
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:51 PM
 
11,267 posts, read 11,282,861 times
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Quote:
If I were god...


I would have done things a liiiiittt......tle differently.
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:16 PM
 
8,636 posts, read 3,847,543 times
Reputation: 1919
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I would have done things a liiiiittt......tle differently.
So you would have created robots and clones? Why is God immoral for giving us life yet it is perfectly acceptable for millions of humans to have children fully knowing they are bringing a child into this world of pain?

Kinda makes me think of that movie, The Truman Show. It would seem immoral for people to keep Truman in this perfect fishbowl world and not let him know that there is another world out there. A world with many dangers.


God gave man a choice. Stay in the perfect fishbowl world or go against His direction and take that doorway that leads to knowledge that evil and death exists. It's kinda hypocritical that parents don't keep their children locked at home away from dangers wrapped in bubble wrap. They let their child make their own choices and find their own path. Why is that ok and it is wrong for God to present a choice for man?
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:36 PM
 
946 posts, read 263,629 times
Reputation: 2611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
What further complicates things is that...I'm sure many people exist now who would perceive having a kid born into medieval Europe as not a good thing to do to that kid...and I'd be surprised if, if humans reach a point where they're living in a utopian existence, our descendants wouldn't look back upon us and think, they'd rather never have kids than birth them into our modern, 2019, environment.
I think there have been people of every age who have thought they don't want to bring kids into the current era. Or who maybe regret doing so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
However, once you have a kid...I don't think it makes sense to only count the negatives. There will be positive experiences too. When negative experiences outweigh the positive experiences, or when the opposite happens, I have no idea. I suspect people can feel when either case happens...but that's going to be tricky to judge too.
I suppose it's up to each person. That's why I hate these movies and memes that go on and on about "but we could never make it so people aren't free to do whatever they want/can't feel pain, because all of the good stuff is worth it" or "your life is always worth it no matter what happens."

I don't feel qualified to make that decision for other people. Especially people who may live a life so hellacious I can't imagine it. I can't say other people must live in constant fear, pain, torture, anxiety, etc. just because I think the "bad" things in my life are all negated by a nice sunset or hugging a fuzzy puppy or going for a nice run.
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Old 06-18-2019, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,398 posts, read 2,985,173 times
Reputation: 2040
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
that's it in a nut shell. It is what it is because that's how it is.

people in the middle age Europe wished it was different. well, guess what ... it is now. people get caught in "time". specifically in human time, like its the end all.

the system is evolving. evolution points to the system becoming more complex in its interactions. Like we are a "better monkey" there will be a more complex human that may process things in a much more human way.

The movie I-Robot seems to fit. The robot was right, its people that wanted to continue the madness. They thought what they know is all we need to know. They thought their feelings were the deciding factor.

I was ok with the robot losing, they weren't ready yet. They will be Sonny-er days ahead.
I agree. I'm pretty optimistic about the far future, whether humans abound in it, or something else.
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Old 06-18-2019, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,398 posts, read 2,985,173 times
Reputation: 2040
Quote:
Originally Posted by K12144 View Post
I think there have been people of every age who have thought they don't want to bring kids into the current era. Or who maybe regret doing so.




I suppose it's up to each person. That's why I hate these movies and memes that go on and on about "but we could never make it so people aren't free to do whatever they want/can't feel pain, because all of the good stuff is worth it" or "your life is always worth it no matter what happens."

I don't feel qualified to make that decision for other people. Especially people who may live a life so hellacious I can't imagine it. I can't say other people must live in constant fear, pain, torture, anxiety, etc. just because I think the "bad" things in my life are all negated by a nice sunset or hugging a fuzzy puppy or going for a nice run.
Agreed.
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Old 06-18-2019, 08:22 PM
 
40,103 posts, read 26,772,494 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I would have done things a liiiiittt......tle differently.
If you could, Thrill. It is only human hubris that assigns the Omni's to God so that He will QUALIFY to be our God. There is no reason whatsoever to expect God to have any such powers.
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Old 06-18-2019, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,398 posts, read 2,985,173 times
Reputation: 2040
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
that's it in a nut shell. It is what it is because that's how it is.

people in the middle age Europe wished it was different. well, guess what ... it is now. people get caught in "time". specifically in human time, like its the end all.

the system is evolving. evolution points to the system becoming more complex in its interactions. Like we are a "better monkey" there will be a more complex human that may process things in a much more human way.

The movie I-Robot seems to fit. The robot was right, its people that wanted to continue the madness. They thought what they know is all we need to know. They thought their feelings were the deciding factor.

I was ok with the robot losing, they weren't ready yet. They will be Sonny-er days ahead.
Yeah...I figure that one thing anti-natalists and most groups might see as an ideal goal is the continuation of sentient, tool-using, self-aware life.

Human life tends to want what's best for other life. It may not act on that want, but if it doesn't have to do anything for it, it'll want what's best for other life.

The longer we're around the easier I'd suspect it would be for humans to assist other life, due to technological advancements. We should understand more about the nature of reality the longer we're around too...and then our descendants will be better at determining the fate of the universe.

Regardless of what the fate of life should be, I'd say, it's better in the hands of intelligent life, rather than blind Darwinian evolution. Humans may not reach the point of rising to our throne and ruling the universe, but I'd think just about any sentient, tool-using, self-aware life would do. There will be a best way of doing things, and the longer any species is around the more time they'll have to figure that out, so far as I can tell.

That's one reason even if I were an anti-natalist, I wouldn't want humanity to go extinct. I'd still want the same fate for us, or other tool-using life that I want now. I want our descendants to spread across the universe and use our empathy and our intelligence to rule this place.
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Old 06-19-2019, 12:22 AM
 
11,267 posts, read 11,282,861 times
Reputation: 3470
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
So you would have created robots and clones? Why is God immoral for giving us life yet it is perfectly acceptable for millions of humans to have children fully knowing they are bringing a child into this world of pain?

Kinda makes me think of that movie, The Truman Show. It would seem immoral for people to keep Truman in this perfect fishbowl world and not let him know that there is another world out there. A world with many dangers.


God gave man a choice. Stay in the perfect fishbowl world or go against His direction and take that doorway that leads to knowledge that evil and death exists. It's kinda hypocritical that parents don't keep their children locked at home away from dangers wrapped in bubble wrap. They let their child make their own choices and find their own path. Why is that ok and it is wrong for God to present a choice for man?
Jeff, why should someone have to answer a question for which the answer is so painfully obvious? Who has the greater knowledge, the greater power, and ultimately the greater responsibility here, God or humans? Who made us and instilled in us the weaknesses we possess? Who takes full responsibility for how the universe and everything in it is governed? At whose desk does the buck stop? So why should God be absolved of all culpability for a sinful world He created merely by saying, "I gave you free will so that gets me off the hook for any blame for the way the world operates?

Why are you Christians constantly trying to whitewash God of any liability for all the evil in the world and throw it on the backs of weak, dumb ignorant humans when God plainly states in His holy Bible, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah35:7

This is why "free will" and "original sin" was invented by the church: just another way to con men into believing THEY'RE the ones who have to take it in the neck for God's screw-ups. The churchmen are constantly drumming into our minds how filthy and no-good we are so that we will have to come crawling to the churchmen begging them to intervene before God on our behalf.

This is all so diabolical I cannot begin to fathom intelligent people falling for this ruse but you are in-our-face evidence people do fall for it.
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