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Old 06-16-2019, 04:05 AM
 
13,450 posts, read 4,976,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Christians,

Does anyone remember having a born-again experience when they were a child or teenager?

I think a lot of this has to do with your early experience. I want to share something I remember happening in church when I was a kid. We were in Sunday school watching a short film on video. I can't remember what it was about, but in one scene it showed a boy sneaking into a room and stealing something. We were all pretty engrossed in the scene because the kid was trying to hurry and not get caught. But in the chair in front of me I heard a boy say kind of softly, "He better hurry up." But I remember thinking the exact opposite. I was thinking, some good adult better hurry up and get to the room so they can catch him in the act.

When I heard the other kid say that out loud I just sort of looked over at him in disbelief. I was just staring at him.

But then it seemed like he wasn't the only kid watching the film from that perspective. And since this was obviously produced by an evangelical Christian group, the message was trying to show that we are all sinners in need of salvation.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? When I was that age I didn't feel the need for salvation. But I think maybe most kids did. Maybe I was not "normal" in that perspective. And I feel now like I wasn't any better than they were. I was the same, but just developed in different stages. But the fact that I was more interested in following God's laws, even before I became saved, made me different than most kids? Now when I hear a preacher say something like, "An evil person doesn't see the sin in himself. He thinks he doesn't need God". Well, that is not exactly how I felt as a child. I certainly believed in God and I wanted to follow Jesus. But I never felt like a "sinner" in need of salvation at that age. I was more humble, personally, and I never would have thought about stealing or other things like that.

Do you have any thoughts on this? Thank you.

EDIT: Sorry, I should not have put the word "saved" in quotes because I think it is legitimate. Also, I intended to open this in the Christianity subforum. (Sorry to moderators.)
what you are talking is a big problem in this discussion. People cannot separate "god" from 'religion".

how the universe works and born sinners do not necessarily jive. But they can jive if we understand the focal point.

we see it here on CD. People will not entertain a discussion on how the universe works separably form their personal statement of belief about god/religion. the anti-god/religous and the my-god-only types have a lot more energy and shout down the rest of us.

so ye, children look to adults to "save" them. But the word "save" doesn't quite describe what children are thinking or our role, as adults.
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Old 06-16-2019, 08:20 AM
 
10,516 posts, read 12,728,045 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
what you are talking is a big problem in this discussion. People cannot separate "god" from 'religion".

how the universe works and born sinners do not necessarily jive. But they can jive if we understand the focal point.

we see it here on CD. People will not entertain a discussion on how the universe works separably form their personal statement of belief about god/religion. the anti-god/religous and the my-god-only types have a lot more energy and shout down the rest of us.

so ye, children look to adults to "save" them. But the word "save" doesn't quite describe what children are thinking or our role, as adults.
You are the second person to refer to adults saving children. But I see it as adults pointing to God, for children. The same God that the adult gets help from.

The result is that many people's lives are changed as a result of that saving experience. Changed for the better for the rest of their lives. Both for themselves and the people around them.
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:21 PM
 
5,133 posts, read 2,527,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
You are the second person to refer to adults saving children. But I see it as adults pointing to God, for children. The same God that the adult gets help from.
The result is that many people's lives are changed as a result of that saving experience. Changed for the better for the rest of their lives. Both for themselves and the people around them.
I find a person can be saved for the better or not. 'Or Not' because of what Jesus said at Matthew 24:13.
A person must endure to the end in order to be saved.
So, either endure faithful to the end of one's life, or endure to the coming ' time of separation ' on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33
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Old 06-18-2019, 03:20 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
No, I'm not going to argue with anyone on any of these topics. I'm just more interested in hearing from anyone who had a spiritual conversion/repentance at a young age.

Yes, I got "saved" at a very powerful rapture drama onstage at the age of 20. Made me shake and cry--the whole nine yards. Years later I realized it was just an emotional response to a supersized sound effect panel in the studio room blasting crashing cars, people screaming, blasting horns over the PA into the audience. I was tremendously naive back then. Had I not heard those effects and gotten sucked in by the chaotic noise I might have had a totally different reaction.
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Old 06-18-2019, 03:29 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
I find a person can be saved for the better or not. 'Or Not' because of what Jesus said at Matthew 24:13.
A person must endure to the end in order to be saved.
So, either endure faithful to the end of one's life, or endure to the coming ' time of separation ' on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33

Matthew's response points beautifully to why religions, especially Christianity, is entirely subjective far as what to believe. Matthew doesn't believe in "once saved, always saved" but millions of other Christians do. God is nowhere to be found to solve the dilemma. One third of Christians believe in eternal damnation, one third believe in annihilation, one-third believe in universal salvation. Once again, God is nowhere to be found to solve the dilemma. I could go down a whole laundry list of the issues that divide Christians on beliefs. My feeling, one of many that drove me away from Christianity: there's too much chaos in Christianity and God is AWOL to give us clear answers on which belief is the right one. Bottom line: there as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians--because each of us has our own subjective view of what is the right way to believe in Jesus. Score one for satan.
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Old 06-18-2019, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,342 posts, read 2,971,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Yes, I got "saved" at a very powerful rapture drama onstage at the age of 20. Made me shake and cry--the whole nine yards. Years later I realized it was just an emotional response to a supersized sound effect panel in the studio room blasting crashing cars, people screaming, blasting horns over the PA into the audience. I was tremendously naive back then. Had I not heard those effects and gotten sucked in by the chaotic noise I might have had a totally different reaction.
I don't think it's just you. If I could choose one class for the people of Earth to all take, it would be a class on just how much humans love dreaming up fictional realities. I figure if people could see that from an early age, it would go pretty far.
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Old 06-18-2019, 04:36 PM
 
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I guess mutual of Omaha's wild kingdom saved me. Cosmos sealed the deal for me. I was very young and realize "they got that thing wrong." It took another few years to realize some people can't be any other way.

yuppers, far left and far right are not in the same realities the rest of us are. I don't think any amount of logic will change them.
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Old 06-25-2019, 04:01 PM
 
177 posts, read 36,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Christians,

Does anyone remember having a born-again experience when they were a child or teenager?

I think a lot of this has to do with your early experience. I want to share something I remember happening in church when I was a kid. We were in Sunday school watching a short film on video. I can't remember what it was about, but in one scene it showed a boy sneaking into a room and stealing something. We were all pretty engrossed in the scene because the kid was trying to hurry and not get caught. But in the chair in front of me I heard a boy say kind of softly, "He better hurry up." But I remember thinking the exact opposite. I was thinking, some good adult better hurry up and get to the room so they can catch him in the act.

When I heard the other kid say that out loud I just sort of looked over at him in disbelief. I was just staring at him.

But then it seemed like he wasn't the only kid watching the film from that perspective. And since this was obviously produced by an evangelical Christian group, the message was trying to show that we are all sinners in need of salvation.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? When I was that age I didn't feel the need for salvation. But I think maybe most kids did. Maybe I was not "normal" in that perspective. And I feel now like I wasn't any better than they were. I was the same, but just developed in different stages. But the fact that I was more interested in following God's laws, even before I became saved, made me different than most kids? Now when I hear a preacher say something like, "An evil person doesn't see the sin in himself. He thinks he doesn't need God". Well, that is not exactly how I felt as a child. I certainly believed in God and I wanted to follow Jesus. But I never felt like a "sinner" in need of salvation at that age. I was more humble, personally, and I never would have thought about stealing or other things like that.

Do you have any thoughts on this? Thank you.

EDIT: Sorry, I should not have put the word "saved" in quotes because I think it is legitimate. Also, I intended to open this in the Christianity subforum. (Sorry to moderators.)
I had a completely unexpected, unanticipated "born again" experience, all alone in a dormitory room, when I was about 20. If you'd said to me an hour before "You're going to have a born again experience before the afternoon is over," I would've laughed at you. I "happened" to pick up my roommate's Bible out of sheer boredom, "happened" to read the Gospel of John, and "happened" to have an overwhelmingly strong inner conviction of Truth. I did indeed have a strong (and well-deserved) sense of being a sinner, and the message of salvation thus was a welcome one.

I then immediately embarked on a journey of being the Young Christian Superstar, heading off to seminary to pursue a Master of Divinity degree barely a year after my conversion at the urging of a Southern Baptist pastor. But I soon realized that my born again experience, while vivid and real, was something I didn't even understand. I was far too shallow of a believer to be in seminary. As a bumper sticker popular at the time used to say "Jesus is the Answer - But What is the Question?"

I thus put Christianity far to the side for decades while I studied other religions and philosophies, delved deeply into paranormal phenomena, and generally plowed a path that I hoped would lead to Truth. It was more than 30 years later that I fully and finally decided that Christianity was the Truth - and this time I knew what I was doing and why.

Despite all this, I do believe that something supernatural happened in my dormitory room that afternoon. I believe God reached down and claimed me at what He knew was a now-or-never moment in time. Had that not occurred, I'm certain for reasons I don't need to share here that my life would have followed a far darker path.

Sure, the scoffers scoff. They are lost. They have no clue. They scoff because, deep down, they know we have something they don't. Deep down, they know they are lost. It's one of the mysteries of Christianity - a slightly disturbing mystery, but one that is set forth very clearly in the Bible - that God does not call everyone, that the Gospel message will make sense only to those with ears to hear. One ray of hope is that those who scoff the loudest are often those who are the closest to making a decision for Christ. They "protest too much," as the saying goes.
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Old 06-25-2019, 04:21 PM
 
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I think your brain "woke up" and made more connections. maybe even one of them there growth spurts.

yes, it is "something", the data bears that out. And its ok to talk about the hazards of religion and the experience you had at the same time. religion doesn't own the system we are in. But religion can help us in ways that any good graphic organizer can.
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Old 06-25-2019, 05:40 PM
 
39,014 posts, read 10,812,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball View Post
I had a completely unexpected, unanticipated "born again" experience, all alone in a dormitory room, when I was about 20. If you'd said to me an hour before "You're going to have a born again experience before the afternoon is over," I would've laughed at you. I "happened" to pick up my roommate's Bible out of sheer boredom, "happened" to read the Gospel of John, and "happened" to have an overwhelmingly strong inner conviction of Truth. I did indeed have a strong (and well-deserved) sense of being a sinner, and the message of salvation thus was a welcome one.

I then immediately embarked on a journey of being the Young Christian Superstar, heading off to seminary to pursue a Master of Divinity degree barely a year after my conversion at the urging of a Southern Baptist pastor. But I soon realized that my born again experience, while vivid and real, was something I didn't even understand. I was far too shallow of a believer to be in seminary. As a bumper sticker popular at the time used to say "Jesus is the Answer - But What is the Question?"

I thus put Christianity far to the side for decades while I studied other religions and philosophies, delved deeply into paranormal phenomena, and generally plowed a path that I hoped would lead to Truth. It was more than 30 years later that I fully and finally decided that Christianity was the Truth - and this time I knew what I was doing and why.

Despite all this, I do believe that something supernatural happened in my dormitory room that afternoon. I believe God reached down and claimed me at what He knew was a now-or-never moment in time. Had that not occurred, I'm certain for reasons I don't need to share here that my life would have followed a far darker path.

Sure, the scoffers scoff. They are lost. They have no clue. They scoff because, deep down, they know we have something they don't. Deep down, they know they are lost. It's one of the mysteries of Christianity - a slightly disturbing mystery, but one that is set forth very clearly in the Bible - that God does not call everyone, that the Gospel message will make sense only to those with ears to hear. One ray of hope is that those who scoff the loudest are often those who are the closest to making a decision for Christ. They "protest too much," as the saying goes.
Of course that is all in your imagination. All of it. I'm aware of the way the conversion experience can be brought about by the methods with which we are familiar. I say 'conversion' rather than 'being saved' because Nerf above described an apparently different 'conversion' experience which he nevertheless sees as the same thing. 'Conversion'. Even for those who already believed. They 'converted' again. 'Saved', 'Born again' - whatever. And some several times.

And those who have deconverted look back and see how they were fooling themselves. I have heard a few tales about people 'converting' when they just saw a Passage of scripture. In fact i heard a Muslim here say exactly the same thing about a passage of the Quran. I have a theory... ..that this is not a Thing that happens Just Out Of Nowhere. This is the result of months - perhaps years - of wrestling with the question of whether to believe and what. I suspect that these people have already decided what to believe..and (recalling the Story of the Muslim convert) the partiality was all there. They just needed to talk themselves into it.

The scripture passage was just the last straw that was the release of the conversion already made.

I heard something similar from an online friend who deconverted when he saw a minister in a store buying medicine. A tiny thing in itself - but that's what they always say. It was the thing that released a long time of arguing about his belief(1).

And i suspect that i have had the experience, too. Just a passage of (Hindu) scripture; I thought :'That makes as much sense as the Bible' and a great sensation of release came over me. I deconverted - though I'd always been a disbeliever. But the struggle with whether to believe and what had resulted in this feeling of a huge weight sliding from my shoulders and feeling a sense of relief. Yes - others have had that same feeling at deconversion. They were 'saved' - from religion.

I believe that I 'converted' and was 'saved' that day - from being a non - believer to being an atheist. No ....2nd thot - that could be misunderstood - from being a doubter and questioner to a non - believer. Knowing that this was 'atheism' was came years later. Up 'till then I'd got the idea from somewhere that this was being 'agnostic'. Yes, somehow this is what we all get told. And I'm blowed if I know who tells us this.

I have never regretted it. It has transformed my life. It has made me into a better person. Apparently everybody claims this. Fortunately it doesn't mean that I believe (as i am convinced the Believers do) that I am getting Truth revealed into my brain. It has to be worked out and sometimes i get it wrong (2) and it is easy to admit it it. The believers find it so hard...indeed impossible..to admit being wrong. And I think I know why. They cannot admit that this belief (that perhaps they don't realise any more than the realise that the 'conversion' that happened had been going on for weeks) of Truth being revealed into their heads is simply wrong. It's all in their own heads.

P.s There's a part 2 to this . but I'll need a prompt before i cut and paste the bit that starts ..."Sure, the scoffers will scoff..."

(1) I remember something else he told me 'When i was a believer and argued with atheists, i never really listened'.

(2) just the other day I was working on the Book and i saw that my claim that Jesus never said that he would go before the disciples to Galilee was wrong. He says it after the last supper on the way to Gethsemane. In Mark and Matthew anyway.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-25-2019 at 06:32 PM..
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