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Old 06-25-2019, 07:52 PM
 
Location: New York Area
15,882 posts, read 6,252,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
It CAN, and that sort of "us v them" division is indeed a detriment. But that's a deeper fact of human nature. Eliminating religion would not eliminate our need to divide, we would just find a different way to divide ourselves. Hutus and Tutsis ring a bell?

Further, it's too often those in authority or power who use the differences to drive a wedge between the usses and the thems for their own agendas.
Great point. Obviously one must rate the quality of the beliefs being espoused on each side of such a "divide."
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:51 AM
 
39,039 posts, read 10,831,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
It CAN, and that sort of "us v them" division is indeed a detriment. But that's a deeper fact of human nature. Eliminating religion would not eliminate our need to divide, we would just find a different way to divide ourselves. Hutus and Tutsis ring a bell?

Further, it's too often those in authority or power who use the differences to drive a wedge between the usses and the thems for their own agendas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Beliefs in religions imply divisions among us whereas a general belief that we are ALL the purposeful creation of some Entity should foster unity as long as we ELIMINATE any idea that our purpose is tied to the capricious whims and desires of our creator AS DEFINED AND INTERPRETED by any human. Our ignorance should not be a barrier to discovering what makes sense as the purpose of our creation. At the very least, it should identify that acting against or even killing one another for any reason can NOT be part of our purpose for existing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Great point. Obviously one must rate the quality of the beliefs being espoused on each side of such a "divide."
Yet again, I see how much we agree on rather than we disagree on - which is pretty much - you believe in this 'God' thing and we don't.

And yet that is what divides us because you think we are are wrong to see this Universal god as just what the mind does and we think you are wrong to see what the mind does as 'God' (and dismiss the different religions that this god in the head produces).

But I see part of the problem here. "There is no point in trying to get rid of religion on the grounds that it divides people into Us and them - we would only do it another way"(rather the reverse of the 'glue of society' coin. Not if it was understood (and taught) the evolutionary instinct behind 'us and them', how it it is exploited by those in power and how religion is part and parcel of that instinct.

That we are all the sons of God, we are all made of star - matter, or we are all one species is saying the same thing, and yet you still think we are doing it wrong because we don't believe the god in the head is a cosmic mind, and we think you are wrong because you do (1)

But that isn't a real divide, unless you want to keep insisting that we are wrong and we should brainwash ourselves into believing what you do. About half of us have reasoned their way Out and the rest know about that, so no, we are not going to do that, so drop it, please, and lets' see what we we do agree on, which is the dangers of organised religion.

But that of course means supporting the Nones, instead of being the Flying Monkeys; - the enablers of organised religion, because they after all believe in God, don't they?

That's the real divide. Emotional attachment to your religion, Even if you don't actually believe it any more. And thus attack 'Us: - "New" atheists, militant, aggressive and even 'Dogmatic' or 'Fundy', atheism, because we want to 'eradicate religion; and never mind finger - wagging hostility to culturally different religions - especially ones that also threaten Christianity...we all know which 'agnostic' we are looking at here.

Here's hoping that we are Not looking at you, kids.

(1) "you all own that car, and have a personal experience of that car - and yet, you can't even agree what kind of car it is or even what color it is."

"What's his problem?"

"Oh, he doesn't believe that the car exists".

"Fool (see psalms 14.1) atheist. He can't prove that it doesn't (see Mystic's a priori faith fallacy) exist".

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-26-2019 at 04:29 AM..
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:01 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,038 posts, read 937,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
But I see part of the problem here. "There is no point in trying to get rid of religion on the grounds that it divides people into Us and them - we would only do it another way". Not if it was understood (and taught) the evolutionary instinct behind 'us and them', how it it is exploited by those in power and how religion is part and parcel of that instinct.

That we are all the sons of God, we are all made of star - matter, or we are all one species is saying the same thing, and yet you still think we are doing it wrong because we don't believe the god in the head is a cosmic mind, and we think you are wrong because you do.
The star dust idea is nice, but I doubt it would work. We have a natural instinct to divide people into us and them, whether it is politics, race, religion, gender, wealth, football, etc. While this is exploited by those in power, we have the ability to do this to ourselves.
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:23 AM
 
13,490 posts, read 4,990,097 times
Reputation: 1365
when we can describe how the universe works without having to filter it through how we feel about organized religion we will make a quantum leap forward. list the properties of the system we are in. List the traits of what people believe in. compare them to each other.

this battle ends when people don't care what type of system we are in is. but even that is a pipe dream so long as we are as we are. that because people in power don't care about anything but power.

it can start when we don't get hung up on the word god. this doesn't end so long as we have people taking simple basic notions that are clearly evident to 9 year olds and avoid them to meet our personal statement of belief about god.

can we even do it?
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,026 posts, read 54,537,410 times
Reputation: 66369
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Yet again, I see how much we agree on rather than we disagree on - which is pretty much - you believe in this 'God' thing and we don't.

And yet that is what divides us because you think we are are wrong to see this Universal god as just what the mind does and we think you are wrong to see what the mind does as 'God' (and dismiss the different religions that this god in the head produces).

But I see part of the problem here. "There is no point in trying to get rid of religion on the grounds that it divides people into Us and them - we would only do it another way"(rather the reverse of the 'glue of society' coin. Not if it was understood (and taught) the evolutionary instinct behind 'us and them', how it it is exploited by those in power and how religion is part and parcel of that instinct.

That we are all the sons of God, we are all made of star - matter, or we are all one species is saying the same thing, and yet you still think we are doing it wrong because we don't believe the god in the head is a cosmic mind, and we think you are wrong because you do (1)

But that isn't a real divide, unless you want to keep insisting that we are wrong and we should brainwash ourselves into believing what you do. About half of us have reasoned their way Out and the rest know about that, so no, we are not going to do that, so drop it, please, and lets' see what we we do agree on, which is the dangers of organised religion.

But that of course means supporting the Nones, instead of being the Flying Monkeys; - the enablers of organised religion, because they after all believe in God, don't they?

That's the real divide. Emotional attachment to your religion, Even if you don't actually believe it any more. And thus attack 'Us: - "New" atheists, militant, aggressive and even 'Dogmatic' or 'Fundy', atheism, because we want to 'eradicate religion; and never mind finger - wagging hostility to culturally different religions - especially ones that also threaten Christianity...we all know which 'agnostic' we are looking at here.

Here's hoping that we are Not looking at you, kids.

(1) "you all own that car, and have a personal experience of that car - and yet, you can't even agree what kind of car it is or even what color it is."

"What's his problem?"

"Oh, he doesn't believe that the car exists".

"Fool (see psalms 14.1) atheist. He can't prove that it doesn't (see Mystic's a priori faith fallacy) exist".
Nah. I don't necessarily think you are doing it wrong. You might be right. I keep that possibility wide open.

(Except for that part where I am the Mighty Queen and I am ALWAYS right. But that might be a grandiosity issue.)

I'd rather someone be an atheist than think that they have the absolute truth about what God is.
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Old 06-27-2019, 05:59 AM
 
13,490 posts, read 4,990,097 times
Reputation: 1365
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I held this post till tonight after sundown out of respect for my fellow Jews. I am posting it here rather than in the "Judaism" sub-forum since I believe it is of general applicability. However I am Jewish and the setting is a Reform Jewish service.

I just returned from Friday night services at my synagogue. The service was incredibly beautiful. The beauty of the service had little to do with whether or not G-d exists. The subject of the service was memorialization of the life of a young woman who was confirmed after suffering from a rare bone cancer for five and a half years. She barely made it down the aisle, and passed away nine days after confirmation. I had the privilege of talking with the stepfather of the deceased young woman. He and the woman's mother come up from Florida every year for this service. After service, an award is given to a deserving young man or woman of confirmation age that demonstrates many of the traits and qualities that made this young woman special.

The service also honors graduating high school students, all of whom are going on to college. The service emphasizes the transitions and growth in the life cycle.

What made this service especially meaningful for me was my deep roots in the community. I was Bar Mitzvahed in 1970. My father's death was mourned in the synagogue in 1973. The Rabbi married my mother and stepfather in 1974. The same Rabbi married my wife and I in 1991.

Aside from religion, what is created by religious worship is a deep sense of civil community. I believe that it is possible to believe in G-d or not to believe in G-d; either way, the collective experience is one for the ages.
love thy enemy ...

far supersedes a belief in god.

now, how to we get the average person to understand love thy neighbor?

how do we get people to understand that we may need to go to war with a neighbor even tho we love thy neighbor whole heartily?
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