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Old 06-24-2019, 02:36 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
Reputation: 3445

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
You won’t ever go to hell for the exact same reason that you won’t ever go to Narnia: neither place is real.
While what you say is most likely true, Freak this is not the position I intended to approach the question from. Can we prove hell isn't real? No, we can't. Can we prove it IS real? No, we can't.

What we CAN prove, which would lead us to the logical conclusion that even is hell is real nobody has to worry about going there, is that if it can definitively be proven Jesus never said people would go to hell if they didn't believe he was the son of God, then nobody is going to hell if they don't believe Jesus is the son of God.

Why?

Because what we have today cannot possibly in any way shape or form be traced back to Jesus.

Why?

Because Nothing from Jesus' time, even if it had gotten written down, has survived. Blame that on God. God simply didn't want any veridical testimony about His son, Jesus to survive.

Therefore...

The earliest we can get the gospels to is about 50-100 years AFTER Jesus.

Who wrote them?

With absolute certainly NOT anybody who knew Jesus.

Why?

Because we now know the gospels were written by unknown anonymous highly literate Greek scholars who were living in Greece, or at least a minimum of a thousand miles away from Judea when they wrote the gospels. With absolute certainly, they couldn't have spoken to Jesus. They most certainly couldn't have spoken to anybody who knew Jesus. With absolute certainty they didn't reference any documents from Jesus' time that have survived which would corroborate their gospels.

So....

Since we cannot trace ANYTHING written in the gospels back to Jesus, it is a forgone conclusion that in order to flesh out their depiction of Jesus the gospel writers had to make up dialogue spoken by Jesus in the gospels.

Conclusion:
Since we cannot proven Jesus said anything at all about going to hell, logically we must dismiss everything Jesus purportedly spoke about, including disbelievers going to hell because they chose not to believe in him.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 06-24-2019 at 03:59 PM..
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Old 06-25-2019, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,766 posts, read 4,958,159 times
Reputation: 1499
Again Thrill, you are looking through a prism of anti God, Anti Judaism through a glass of modern Christianity.

Everything Jesus said was said in the spirit, every single word has a reason for being said from ancient tradition and rituals Christians do not know.

You say,'' Jesus clearly said this.''

Jesus didn't say anything clearly for anyone to read Thrill, Jesus flat out explains this fact, he spoke so that very few people could understand what he was saying because everything he said and did was cloaked in tradition unknown to Gentiles, and to many Jews, Jesus spoke of the Kingdom Thrill.

What is the kingdom?

You.

You are not seeing the language of the feasts and traditions because you aren't familiar with them or the purpose of who and what Satan is, who and what the son of perdition is, and exactly where and what hell is.

You are in hell Thrill, you just don't know it.
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Old 06-25-2019, 06:26 PM
 
13,450 posts, read 4,976,974 times
Reputation: 1363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Again Thrill, you are looking through a prism of anti God, Anti Judaism through a glass of modern Christianity.

Everything Jesus said was said in the spirit, every single word has a reason for being said from ancient tradition and rituals Christians do not know.

You say,'' Jesus clearly said this.''

Jesus didn't say anything clearly for anyone to read Thrill, Jesus flat out explains this fact, he spoke so that very few people could understand what he was saying because everything he said and did was cloaked in tradition unknown to Gentiles, and to many Jews, Jesus spoke of the Kingdom Thrill.

What is the kingdom?

You.

You are not seeing the language of the feasts and traditions because you aren't familiar with them or the purpose of who and what Satan is, who and what the son of perdition is, and exactly where and what hell is.

You are in hell Thrill, you just don't know it.
thrill isn't looking though anti-god. He is looking through anti-christian. they are completely different and he is very clear on what he is talking about.

yeah, he is going through the process. But he is crystal clear on what he saying. Christian dogma is seriously flawed when taken literally. In fact, its nonsense.

I agree.
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Old 06-25-2019, 08:04 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
Reputation: 3445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Again Thrill, you are looking through a prism of anti God, Anti Judaism through a glass of modern Christianity.

Everything Jesus said was said in the spirit, every single word has a reason for being said from ancient tradition and rituals Christians do not know.

You say,'' Jesus clearly said this.''

Jesus didn't say anything clearly for anyone to read Thrill, Jesus flat out explains this fact, he spoke so that very few people could understand what he was saying because everything he said and did was cloaked in tradition unknown to Gentiles, and to many Jews, Jesus spoke of the Kingdom Thrill.

What is the kingdom?

You.

You are not seeing the language of the feasts and traditions because you aren't familiar with them or the purpose of who and what Satan is, who and what the son of perdition is, and exactly where and what hell is.

You are in hell Thrill, you just don't know it.

You're missing my point, Hannibal. As soon as you say, "Everything Jesus said...." you lose the point I was making. The point is, Hannibal, that everything you THINK Jesus said, he didn't say. Got that? Jesus didn't say it, an anonymous writer in Greece said it. Let that sink for a minute or so. Once you accept this fact you can think with a clearer head.



Jesus didn't say it, an anonymous writer in Greece said it.

Whatever we have that is attributed to Jesus in the gospels we have no way of proving Jesus said it. This is a very powerful truth when it sinks in. It means that all the rules, regulations and commands Jesus laid down in the gospels are null and void. They have no force of effect.


This is exactly why prayer doesn't work. Because Jesus never said it worked; some idiot Jesus zealot in Greece said that Jesus said it.


This is also why Jesus is never returning to earth in some cockamamie 2nd Coming that the Christians fervently believe in. It was all made up by the gospel writers.

So I tell you what. Let's have the conversation for a moment in this light and see what we get. If you want to refer to stuff in the gospels attributed to Jesus then say it in the frame of, "The gospels have Jesus saying....." and then the conversation makes more sense.

What do you think?
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Old 06-25-2019, 10:18 PM
 
4,410 posts, read 1,637,523 times
Reputation: 1528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
You won’t ever go to hell for the exact same reason that you won’t ever go to Narnia: neither place is real.
“Neither place is real”?

Making a claim without evidence, aren’t we?
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Old 06-25-2019, 10:50 PM
 
4,410 posts, read 1,637,523 times
Reputation: 1528
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
You're missing my point, Hannibal. As soon as you say, "Everything Jesus said...." you lose the point I was making. The point is, Hannibal, that everything you THINK Jesus said, he didn't say. Got that? Jesus didn't say it, an anonymous writer in Greece said it. Let that sink for a minute or so. Once you accept this fact you can think with a clearer head.



Jesus didn't say it, an anonymous writer in Greece said it.

Whatever we have that is attributed to Jesus in the gospels we have no way of proving Jesus said it. This is a very powerful truth when it sinks in. It means that all the rules, regulations and commands Jesus laid down in the gospels are null and void. They have no force of effect.


This is exactly why prayer doesn't work. Because Jesus never said it worked; some idiot Jesus zealot in Greece said that Jesus said it.


This is also why Jesus is never returning to earth in some cockamamie 2nd Coming that the Christians fervently believe in. It was all made up by the gospel writers.

So I tell you what. Let's have the conversation for a moment in this light and see what we get. If you want to refer to stuff in the gospels attributed to Jesus then say it in the frame of, "The gospels have Jesus saying....." and then the conversation makes more sense.

What do you think?
This is a strong post that I agree with on most points *BUT* the logic that,
“because an anonymous writer in Greece said it, hence it’s not true”
could fireback in at least two ways.

1 - How do we know that anonymous writer in Greece was actually lying? Do we have another source of what Jesus said for comparison? May be what the anonymous writer in Greece wrote, was actually true or partially true? Who knows?

2 - Did Moses actually say what’s in Torah or we should reject it because it has multiple writers according to some research?
Should we believe what’s in Shakespeare’s drama books to be actually written by him or not, because it was actually published by a press and only then it reached to us.

If you go back deep in history, then you will almost always have a third party telling you what happened?

So, even though it’s a very, very strong point, but rejecting what’s in the Bible *solely* based on the fact that it was written by unknown writers in Greece, one should actually dismiss Bible primarily by reading it, analyzing it and listening to the call from his heart to put it aside and say, “it can’t be from God.”

Some people may arrive at the opposite conclusion. They may believe that EVERYTHING in the Bible IS from God.
Each to its own.

But the idea is, a religious theology should be judged by reading and analyzing its holy book to see if it talks to your heart or not? This is my personal opinion.
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,332,182 times
Reputation: 2610
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
This is a strong post that I agree with on most points *BUT* the logic that,
“because an anonymous writer in Greece said it, hence it’s not true”
could fireback in at least two ways.

1 - How do we know that anonymous writer in Greece was actually lying? Do we have another source of what Jesus said for comparison? May be what the anonymous writer in Greece wrote, was actually true or partially true? Who knows?
Correct. We don't know. So, as we don't know, the next best thing we can look at is the probability of it being true.

So, what is the probability that someone who wasn't there and who was writing some 50 - 100 years after the alleged event took place, would be able to relay verbatim what the characters in the plot said, did, or went, verbatim mind you, right down to what was said by whom and to whom, where it was said and what time of the day it was said - even down to one writer telling us what someone said even though he (the writer) was a distance away from the speaker...and ASLEEP at the time!
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Old 06-26-2019, 12:48 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,028 posts, read 932,188 times
Reputation: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
“Neither place is real”?

Making a claim without evidence, aren’t we?
No, they are making a claim supported by evidence. The question should be is the evidence strong enough for Freak to be so confident in their claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
This is a strong post that I agree with on most points *BUT* the logic that,
“because an anonymous writer in Greece said it, hence it’s not true”
could fireback in at least two ways.

1 - How do we know that anonymous writer in Greece was actually lying? Do we have another source of what Jesus said for comparison? May be what the anonymous writer in Greece wrote, was actually true or partially true? Who knows?
Yes, we have other anonymous writers telling us what Jesus allegedly said that is often contradictory. Jesus in the gospels is an invented figure* used to tell the audience for the gospels what that sect of Christianity believed. Matthew, Mark and John each have different theologies, with Luke trying to use Mark, Matthew and Paul's letters to invent a united Christianity that pretends there are no arguments in the early church.

* even if there was a historical Jesus.
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Old 06-26-2019, 02:37 AM
 
Location: NSW
2,735 posts, read 1,862,970 times
Reputation: 941
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
There are people who do not believe in UFOs that spend time on UFO discussions.

There are people who do not believe in Bigfoot who watch every TV program and go to conventions.


There are people who think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone that jump into every conspiracy discussion.

Some people simply find those topics interesting, so that spend their free time doing things like that.


Same here. Some non-believers simply find religion an interesting topic for discussion. There are probably lots of different reasons that they come here.
Modern technology has dispelled most of these urban myths.
They have largely disappeared in recent times.
Conspiracy theories is like believing that Elvis is still alive, or something like that.
Christianity though relies on faith and believing in something that happened 2 millennia ago, but with no current technology to prove or disprove it or not.
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:04 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,332,182 times
Reputation: 2610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41 View Post
Christianity though relies on faith and believing in something that happened 2 millennia ago, ...
Yes it does and in doing so, they demonstrate that they don't have the slightest interest in whether or not those things are true. 'Faith' [/b]is such an appalling thing to use when you want to get to the truth. The unfortunate fact is that Christians prefer 'faith' to 'truth'. That is quite obvious and indisputable - because if they REALLY wanted truth they would NEVER use faith.

Quote:
...but with no current technology to prove or disprove it or not.
Really? You need to get out more.
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