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Old 06-21-2019, 12:51 PM
 
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The doctrine of eternal damnation in hell for not believing in/accepting Jesus has been at the cornerstone of Christian belief for 2000 years. It has been used at every stop to bludgeon people into being terrified they will suffer eternally if they don't accept Jesus. But I am here to tell you it is a false doctrine that you have no reason to fear and I can prove it. Listen carefully:

Jesus died in 30CE. At his death nothing he ever said was recorded either by the apostles or secular historians while he was alive. We have no historical records of any of the apostles so we cannot prove they even lived, much less that they wrote anything including the gospels.

The first gospel, Mark's gospel didn't get written until sometime after the fall of Jerusalem in 70CE, so say the gospel was written about 75-80 CE. That's being generous since we haven't a single scrap of the gospel with which to actually date it until the mid 2nd Century.

The first mention of anything that resembles hell comes in Mark 9:43: "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."

Historians don't know who wrote Mark's gospel but they're certain it wasn't John Mark, Peter's supposed companion. We haven't a single mention of John Mark in the historical record. This is all church tradition. And if historians cannot trace Mark's gospel to John Mark, then they cannot trace it to Peter, and if they cannot trace it to Peter then they cannot trace it to Jesus. So there is no proof Jesus ever said this.

"...each Gospel is anonymous" Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...of_the_Gospels

Same with Matthew. Matthew did not write the gospel that bears his name according to historians. The way his name landed on his gospel is basically in the late 2nd century Irenæus threw a lot of 1st century names into a hat and drew out four names to which he assigned these names to the four gospels.

https://ehrmanblog.org/the-gospels-a...aeus-of-lyons/

So this is what we end up with: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

The gospels were written 50-100 years after Jesus by anonymous highly-educated Greeks who didn't have any sources of Jesus' sayings to work from. They relied mostly on stories circulating around the Roman empire for up to a century that supposedly came from some great prophet in Judea who was crucified, little else. With no sources from which to draw, the gospel writers had to make up Jesus' words. So everything you read in the gospels about hell came from the minds of former pagan Greeks newly converted to Christianity who still had the Greek beliefs of Hades and the fiery River Phlegethon from which the Christian beliefs on hell originated.

Bottom line: it cannot be proved with the slightest degree of certainty that Jesus' threats in John 3:16, John 14:6 and John 8:24 originated with Jesus. The best evidence, the ONLY evidence we have shows that ALL of Jesus words in the gospels were made up in the fertile minds of Greek writers trying to spread a new faith called Christianity.


So people have no reason at all to fear they will go to hell and suffer eternally if they do not accept Jesus.
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Old 06-21-2019, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,332,182 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
So people have no reason at all to fear they will go to hell and suffer eternally if they do not accept Jesus.
Good luck convincing the god-zombies of that!
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,661 posts, read 2,865,682 times
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Even as a kid too young to rationalize that this Christianity thing didn't make any sense, I never considered the hell threat to be real. Further, I never accepted that the Jesus man was anything more than a man and no ways to be 'worshipped' whatever worship might have meant although I did accept that he was a real man and really did say and do the things claimed although I can remember rationalizing the 'miracles'. Like Lazarus was never really dead in the first place.
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Old 06-21-2019, 04:18 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Good luck convincing the god-zombies of that!
I know what you mean.

"Jesus said it. I believe it. That settles it. Whether he actually said it or not, I don't care."
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Old 06-21-2019, 05:22 PM
 
4,410 posts, read 1,637,523 times
Reputation: 1528
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
The doctrine of eternal damnation in hell for not believing in/accepting Jesus has been at the cornerstone of Christian belief for 2000 years. It has been used at every stop to bludgeon people into being terrified they will suffer eternally if they don't accept Jesus. But I am here to tell you it is a false doctrine that you have no reason to fear and I can prove it. Listen carefully:

Jesus died in 30CE. At his death nothing he ever said was recorded either by the apostles or secular historians while he was alive. We have no historical records of any of the apostles so we cannot prove they even lived, much less that they wrote anything including the gospels.

The first gospel, Mark's gospel didn't get written until sometime after the fall of Jerusalem in 70CE, so say the gospel was written about 75-80 CE. That's being generous since we haven't a single scrap of the gospel with which to actually date it until the mid 2nd Century.

The first mention of anything that resembles hell comes in Mark 9:43: "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."

Historians don't know who wrote Mark's gospel but they're certain it wasn't John Mark, Peter's supposed companion. We haven't a single mention of John Mark in the historical record. This is all church tradition. And if historians cannot trace Mark's gospel to John Mark, then they cannot trace it to Peter, and if they cannot trace it to Peter then they cannot trace it to Jesus. So there is no proof Jesus ever said this.

"...each Gospel is anonymous" Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...of_the_Gospels

Same with Matthew. Matthew did not write the gospel that bears his name according to historians. The way his name landed on his gospel is basically in the late 2nd century Irenæus threw a lot of 1st century names into a hat and drew out four names to which he assigned these names to the four gospels.

https://ehrmanblog.org/the-gospels-a...aeus-of-lyons/

So this is what we end up with: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

The gospels were written 50-100 years after Jesus by anonymous highly-educated Greeks who didn't have any sources of Jesus' sayings to work from. They relied mostly on stories circulating around the Roman empire for up to a century that supposedly came from some great prophet in Judea who was crucified, little else. With no sources from which to draw, the gospel writers had to make up Jesus' words. So everything you read in the gospels about hell came from the minds of former pagan Greeks newly converted to Christianity who still had the Greek beliefs of Hades and the fiery River Phlegethon from which the Christian beliefs on hell originated.

Bottom line: it cannot be proved with the slightest degree of certainty that Jesus' threats in John 3:16, John 14:6 and John 8:24 originated with Jesus. The best evidence, the ONLY evidence we have shows that ALL of Jesus words in the gospels were made up in the fertile minds of Greek writers trying to spread a new faith called Christianity.


So people have no reason at all to fear they will go to hell and suffer eternally if they do not accept Jesus.
This is a well documented and researched conclusion that many choose to believe, and yes, there are millions who do not believe in this research and logic. Each to it's own.


However, if we look at the logic and philosophy, given that, Jesus was real and he had a message, THEN, the question is, what was Jesus's original message? And what are the consequences for those, if any, who rejected Jesus's message or did not follow it?


And here, for the first part again,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LFDc4V2CB4
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:15 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
This is a well documented and researched conclusion that many choose to believe, and yes, there are millions who do not believe in this research and logic. Each to it's own.


However, if we look at the logic and philosophy, given that, Jesus was real and he had a message, THEN, the question is, what was Jesus's original message? And what are the consequences for those, if any, who rejected Jesus's message or did not follow it?


And here, for the first part again,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LFDc4V2CB4
That's a reasonable question. Let's examine it.

Millions of Christians refuse to look at the very potent evidence that the gospels were written, not by anyone who actually knew Jesus, but by highly literate Greek writers most likely in Greece 50-100 years after Jesus' death. So if they never heard Jesus speak, had no written sources to refer to, and couldn't interview anybody because everyone were either dead or lost to time--then how would they have been able to write such precise dialogue between Jesus and other parties, not to mention the sermon on the mount and even more astonishing, the 4-chapter long last supper discourse that runs for about 2000 words or better? How would this be possible? Answer: it wouldn't--to any rational mind who thinks this thing through.

But the vast majority of Christians, threatened with the destruction of their faith and belief system, would fall to pieces if they acknowledged what the rational part of their minds is screaming at them. This brings on an extreme case of cognitive dissonance. It's like a person watching their house burn to the ground who keeps saying to themselves, "This is not happening to me! I refuse to accept that this is happening to me!"

And so millions of Christians, in danger of losing their church life, their church friends, their worship habits, and belief in Jesus, shut their minds off completely from reality and seal themselves in their safe bubble where they can protect themselves from the ugly truth.

But then your next question, "What was Jesus' original message?" is something we can only speculate on. It's likely he said generally accepted things like, "Treat you neighbor as you would want yourself to be treated". The Jesus seminar, a group of highly esteemed Bible scholars attribute only about 15% of everything in the gospels to Jesus. The rest, they say, according to the evidence, Jesus never said.

So if it cannot be proved Jesus ever warned people about the consequences of not believing in him--if this teaching--that there would be consequences for not obeying and following Jesus--in fact originated in the minds of the Greek writers, then these warning do NOT carry any authority far as God and Jesus go. Unless one wants to argue the anonymous writers were writing from inspiration from the Holy Spirit. But I don't know of anybody crazy enough to argue that.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 06-21-2019 at 08:37 PM..
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Old 06-21-2019, 08:02 PM
 
40,034 posts, read 26,715,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Unless one wants to argue the anonymous writers were writing from inspiration from the Holy Spirit. But I don't know of anybody crazy enough to argue that.
Uh . . . Yes, you do, Thrill. Inspiration from God is available to anyone. There is no special class of humans who get inspired. The consciousness I encountered has to be there to influence anyone and everyone, they just may not know it or pay any attention.
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Old 06-21-2019, 08:39 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Uh . . . Yes, you do, Thrill. Inspiration from God is available to anyone. There is no special class of humans who get inspired. The consciousness I encountered has to be there to influence anyone and everyone, they just may not know it or pay any attention.

Yeah, this is a philosophical issue, Mystic. I can get a visitation from the Holy Spirit tonight and report it tomorrow but who would believe me?
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Old 06-21-2019, 08:59 PM
 
39,014 posts, read 10,812,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Good luck convincing the god-zombies of that!
The thot popped into my head, too, despite the excellence of the post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Yeah, this is a philosophical issue, Mystic. I can get a visitation from the Holy Spirit tonight and report it tomorrow but who would believe me?
Indeed, who Should believe you? Mystic wouldn't (and indeed would bet my last 6 pack of cider and tomorrow's Sunday that he doesn't) if this Divine informant told you something that Mystic didn't think was right. In fact, why should you believe you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
This is a well documented and researched conclusion that many choose to believe, and yes, there are millions who do not believe in this research and logic. Each to it's own.


However, if we look at the logic and philosophy, given that, Jesus was real and he had a message, THEN, the question is, what was Jesus's original message? And what are the consequences for those, if any, who rejected Jesus's message or did not follow it?


And here, for the first part again,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LFDc4V2CB4

A good question. And the dude has a good point. And one that is central to the amount of time, effort, sweat, curses, 6 packs of cider and 500 gm packs of pipe tobacco I have expended over the gospels. These people are not only unlikely to be eyewitness or reporting eyewitness, but they cannot be eyewitness or even reliable report of eyewitness.

Even if the gospels are reliable, then the doctrine of hell - even if not heaven - is a matter of interpretation.

If they are not, then it is merely a matter of faith. I might even say faith - based denial.

And I use the epithet 'merely' with due thought. Faith is Not a good reason for believing anything. Evidence is. and Evidence is what my gospels research is all about.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-21-2019 at 09:12 PM..
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Old 06-21-2019, 09:27 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
Reputation: 3445
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
The thot popped into my head, too, despite the excellence of the post.



Indeed, who Should believe you? Mystic wouldn't (and indeed would bet my last 6 pack of cider and tomorrow's Sunday that he doesn't) if this Divine informant told you something that Mystic didn't think was right. In fact, why should you believe you?



A good question. And the dude has a good point. And one that is central to the amount of time, effort, sweat, curses, 6 packs of cider and 500 gm packs of pipe tobacco I have expended over the gospels. These people are not only unlikely to be eyewitness or reporting eyewitness, but they cannot be eyewitness or even reliable report of eyewitness.

Even if the gospels are reliable, then the doctrine of hell - even if not heaven - is a matter of interpretation.

If they are not, then it is merely a matter of faith. I might even say faith - based denial.

And I use the epithet 'merely' with due thought. Faith is Not a good reason for believing anything. Evidence is. and Evidence is what my gospels research is all about.

Yes, I am always baffled by the power of denial. It's like putting two quarters on a table and telling a Christian, "There's the 50 cents I owe you" and the Christian says, "That's not 50 cents, that's two quarters. I want my 50 cents." You can push the matter by asking, "What do you think two quarters equals?" And the Christian will say, "It's a matter of interpretation. You see 50 cents. I see two quarters." When the conversation gets to that point all you can do is just pick your two quarters up and walk away shaking your head while all your marbles spill out on the floor.
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