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Old 06-26-2019, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Long Island
1,720 posts, read 1,387,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
What religions did you change from/to?
From Southern Baptist to Jewish.
It's akin to leaving one planet and moving to another.
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Old 06-26-2019, 12:53 PM
 
40,066 posts, read 26,739,576 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
As someone who has changed his religion, married a woman who has changed her religion, and know hundreds of other people who have also changed their religions, I'd say that your premise is flawed.

While the dominate religion in area does have a large influence on which religion a person born in that area follows, it isn't the only one.

Also, why would you assume that there is somehow a "right" religion?
The right religion for anyone is the one that fosters in them the love of God and each other and the belief IN God, period.
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Old 06-26-2019, 05:58 PM
 
177 posts, read 37,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
No it isn't. It's quite the opposite because such people don't car about what IS true but only about what they WANT to be true. We see it every day on this forum.
And you know this how? From what you have observed on an Internet forum?

All people who take religion seriously don't care about what is true? Every Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim doesn't care about what is true? Only atheists uniquely care about what is true? None of the 80 billion or so religious people who have lived over the past 6000 years cared about what is true? The countless martyrs never cared about what is true?

How about you - do you care what is true? If so, are you unique or are there at least a couple of others like you?

Do you have any idea how utterly and self-evidently silly your statement is?

Quote:
...and what about those that were born and raised in Christian countries and who are now Hindu or Muslim?
What about them? They may have been cultural Christians and become cultural Hindus or Muslims. Or they may have undertaken a sincere quest and decided that Hinduism or Islam is where the Truth is to be found. The number of conversions to Christianity dwarfs the number of conversions out of Christianity, but so what? Truth isn't determined by a popular vote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Exactly. But of course you are both saying different things using the same words.

"Truth - what is actually so, as far as we can show and tell based on evidence and reason" (Dictionary of Darwinism)

"Truth - What one believes on faith" (see "Lies, Satan and Darwin" entries ) (Theist - English dictionary)
I'm talking about ultimate Truth, insofar as we can know it. I'm talking about Truth in regard to the ultimate metaphysical questions. I capitalize it because I'm talking about ultimate questions such as the nature of reality, the meaning and purpose (if any) of life, and the existence or non-existence of a supreme being. I'm talking about "what is actually so." We can approach this Truth through observation, experience, study, reflection, intuition and (Christians believe) revelation - nothing very different from the way we approach non-metaphysical questions.

Your other "definition" does not even make sense. I started a thread here some time ago dealing with precisely the sort of nonsense you are spouting, as though religious beliefs were in some entirely different category from other beliefs and were arrived at through some entirely different process. This is simply your self-serving fantasy.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:24 PM
 
39,083 posts, read 10,842,814 times
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And if I had observed that from Internet forums, that would be somehow less valid that accepting the pronouncements of preachers who know nothing other than what they preach?

No, they may pretend to care about what is true (verified) but only until it debunks their beliefs, and then they dismiss it as mere 'opinions of scientists' and revert to faith. "Truth".

No. The facts are available to anyone to see how science proves what it says better than any other system there is, and religion on the contrary has been losing claim after claim disproved.

Metaphysical questions are best solved by reason, and it is looking increasingly likely, an understanding of the evoluitionary biology that gave us instincts - just like the newt and the sunflower.

Religion creates a god in it's own image and gives it a magic wand to make everything 'happen'.

That's the difference between truth and 'Truth'. If you want to talk about what we can conclude from observation and study we can. Don't mix that with 'you believe' revelation as that's just making stuff up and claiming it's true: "Truth". Because that just sabotages the observation and study and does what we call 'Fiddlng the facts to make them fit the faith'.

'Meaning?' 'If any' You said it. On all observation and study - there is none, other than what evolution makes for us - and we can do better than that. Having a big invisible human with a Plan for us isn't meaning' for anyone, but imposed orders. meaning we make for ourselves is Real 'meaning'.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-26-2019 at 06:36 PM..
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Old 06-26-2019, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,916 posts, read 14,235,190 times
Reputation: 16096
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean1the1 View Post
It seems that religion is totally dependant on where one was born, and grew up.

That's exactly right. If you were born in India, you'd be an Hindu, perhaps a polytheist or henotheist, or maybe a true monotheist as a Sikh or a Muslim, and you'd be none-the-wiser.
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Old 06-27-2019, 12:03 AM
 
39,083 posts, read 10,842,814 times
Reputation: 5087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
That's exactly right. If you were born in India, you'd be an Hindu, perhaps a polytheist or henotheist, or maybe a true monotheist as a Sikh or a Muslim, and you'd be none-the-wiser.
That the whole argument. That people can (especially today in the days of Internet) as they grow up and think for themselves, change what they were indoctrinated with from birth is an additional element, but does not alter the fundamental point. Religions are taught. And they are all different.

A cosmic mind, a Creator that started everything - is a different question entirely. It is arguable and the counter to 'Who made everything then?' is looking stronger than it used to where frankly science (and atheism) was at a loss. It's still the best argument they have, but a god of some sort does nothing whatsoever to validate any one particular religion.

The Abrahamic religions may feel they have a stronger case with a a basic story that at first sight appears to describe what went down. But, even aside from Christianity denying the Quran as false and the Muslims denouncing the Gospels as wrong and theirs as the truth, the Bible isn't reliable, really, it isn't and as for the Quran, aside from some serious debunks (see the 'Unquestionable evidences' thread (1) they cannot really make 'Science in the Quran' stick (2) even the best - the number of bones (the Muslims would know all about that ) isn't perfect. There are actually in technical fact more bones than claimed and the number in fact decreases as bones fuse together. Oh yes, The Quran doesn't do too well on it's view of the mechanics of reproduction, either. But I think that's enough

(1) the 'fresh and salt water don't mix' fallacy is a killer. The fly's wing cure is a nice one but they wave that one away - it's from the Hadiths, not the Quran. Good , so we can dismiss anything from the Hadiths, too. and the sun sinking into the swamp shows that the Quran was written from the point of view of men and missed the chance to tell us about earth's rotation before anyone knew about it.

(2) the knocking star is a sweet one. Pulsars don't 'Knock'; that is the sound you get when the pulsing light is turned into a radio signal reproduced as sound. The 'star' that knocks is a poetic simile of retributive death coming to call.

Don't let these schemers and bamboozlers sell you their tripe any more than you should believe Biblical bullcrap. It's All garbage, folks.
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Old 06-27-2019, 01:56 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,341,228 times
Reputation: 2612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball View Post
And you know this how? From what you have observed on an Internet forum?
No. From living on this planet for 70 years...but let's put it to the test. Do you believe that Yahweh once flooded the Earth to a depth of 5 miles and that the ancestors of every single living thing alive today and every organism that has since gone extinct, once fitted onto a boat that was built by a 100 year old man, stayed on it for nearly a year and were then released onto a world that had been under water for a year - and every one of them survived?

Do you accept the verifiable and undeniable evidence of evolution?

Do you believe that the gospel stories about the son of Yahweh are true?

Quote:
All people who take religion seriously don't care about what is true? Every Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim doesn't care about what is true?
Correct. They care only about what they WANT to be true - and if what IS true conflicts with what they WANT to be true, they will ignore what IS true. That is how what you call 'FAITH' works. It denies what is true in favour of a chosen belief. We'll see if that is true by your answers to the above.

Quote:
Only atheists uniquely care about what is true?
I can only say that every atheist I know (and every one that I have ever met) will tell you that, if tomorrow it was proven undeniably that gods DO exist, they would renounce their atheism and become believers. How about you. Would you do the same if it were the other way around and your god was 100% disproved? I don't believe you would. You would still do as you do now - deny the evidence in favour of 'faith'.

Quote:
None of the 80 billion or so religious people who have lived over the past 6000 years cared about what is true?
Correct. They only care about what they WANT to be true (we are talking about in a religious context of course)

Quote:
The countless martyrs never cared about what is true?
Do you think that there are only Christians killing themselves for 'Truth'.? What about Muslim martyrs or Hindus? They all believed they got it right. What about Jim Jones and his followers, the 'Heavens Gate' crowd, the thousand of Japanese soldiers that martyred themselves because they all BELIEVED 100% that they and only they, had the truth. There are infinitely more Muslim martyrs than there are Christians so their beliefs MUST be true right. I mean, aren't you guys always saying that the Jesus followers would not have died for a lie. Why do you think Muslim martyrs would die for a lie?

Quote:
How about you - do you care what is true? If so, are you unique or are there at least a couple of others like you?
I care about what is true to the extent that I place it above what I WANT to be true. Unlike Christians

Quote:
Do you have any idea how utterly and self-evidently silly your statement is?
Only to someone who is more interested in a comfortable lie rather than uncomfortable facts

Quote:
What about them? They may have been cultural Christians and become cultural Hindus or Muslims.
Ah! So they weren't REAL Christians!

Quote:
Or they may have undertaken a sincere quest and decided that Hinduism or Islam is where the Truth is to be found.
Which is exactly what I'm saying and you are denying isn't it. They have decided what is true because they feel comfortable with it. Now just think about it. If Christianity was true, they would have remained Christians, however uncomfortable Christianity was to them. The point is that we cannot DECIDE what is true. Something is true or it isn't, no matter what we believe. There is no middle ground. So for someone to leave the 'Truth' of Christianity and follow the 'Truth' of Hinduism clearly indicated that what is actually true is not on their agenda, only what they BELIEVE to be true. The only truth they are interested in is the 'truth' that they are comfortable with.

Quote:
The number of conversions to Christianity dwarfs the number of conversions out of Christianity, but so what? Truth isn't determined by a popular vote.
Truth SHOULDN'T be determined by popular vote but unfortunately, it is. Just look at history.

Quote:
I started a thread here some time ago dealing with precisely the sort of nonsense you are spouting, as though religious beliefs were in some entirely different category from other beliefs and were arrived at through some entirely different process.
Your religious beliefs ARE in a different category and you HAVE arrived at them through a different process... and I'll prove it. You see, you use EXACTLY the same process of logic, reason and common sense (and I'm not even touching on science) as the rest of us to conclude that pixies, goblins, fairies, leprechauns, Bigfoot, Yeti (and any other supernatural entity you don't believe in) do not exist. Yet when it comes to your god belief, you take all that logic, reason and common sense, open the window and throw it out. You rely instead on 'Faith' - because you know that if you did use the same method of logic, reason and common sense that you use to analyse the existence of leprechauns to analyse the existence of gods, you would come to the exact same conclusion that you do about leprechauns.

Hence your religious beliefs ARE in a different category and ARE arrived at by a different process, to your other beliefs.

Last edited by Rafius; 06-27-2019 at 02:27 AM..
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Old 06-27-2019, 02:01 AM
 
39,083 posts, read 10,842,814 times
Reputation: 5087
Can I rep that? No, I can't but it is the sort of post I wish I'd written. That's not mindless shoulder slapping, but appreciation of how you took a quite good post as Christian apologetics go, and you filleted it. Not just slammed it but proved it wrong. That's good posting.
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Old 06-27-2019, 05:04 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 4,996,362 times
Reputation: 1365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball View Post
And you know this how? From what you have observed on an Internet forum?

All people who take religion seriously don't care about what is true? Every Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim doesn't care about what is true? Only atheists uniquely care about what is true? None of the 80 billion or so religious people who have lived over the past 6000 years cared about what is true? The countless martyrs never cared about what is true?

How about you - do you care what is true? If so, are you unique or are there at least a couple of others like you?

Do you have any idea how utterly and self-evidently silly your statement is?



What about them? They may have been cultural Christians and become cultural Hindus or Muslims. Or they may have undertaken a sincere quest and decided that Hinduism or Islam is where the Truth is to be found. The number of conversions to Christianity dwarfs the number of conversions out of Christianity, but so what? Truth isn't determined by a popular vote.



I'm talking about ultimate Truth, insofar as we can know it. I'm talking about Truth in regard to the ultimate metaphysical questions. I capitalize it because I'm talking about ultimate questions such as the nature of reality, the meaning and purpose (if any) of life, and the existence or non-existence of a supreme being. I'm talking about "what is actually so." We can approach this Truth through observation, experience, study, reflection, intuition and (Christians believe) revelation - nothing very different from the way we approach non-metaphysical questions.

Your other "definition" does not even make sense. I started a thread here some time ago dealing with precisely the sort of nonsense you are spouting, as though religious beliefs were in some entirely different category from other beliefs and were arrived at through some entirely different process. This is simply your self-serving fantasy.
some atheist. only some.

most atheist believe in something. Most atheist don't care if their is or is not a god. most opf uus only care about doing the best we what we gotz.

Most atheist actually feel that many religious people just have the traits/properties of the god thing. I won't lump all theist with fundy-think types if you don't lump all atheist under Fundy think types.

nerf, as you can see, some atheist here so focused on anti-religion they can't see anything else. its called target lock. theist have it too.
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Old 06-27-2019, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,494 posts, read 10,408,804 times
Reputation: 20335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
No. From living on this planet for 70 years...but let's put it to the test. Do you believe that Yahweh once flooded the Earth to a depth of 5 miles and that the ancestors of every single living thing alive today and every organism that has since gone extinct, once fitted onto a boat that was built by a 100 year old man, stayed on it for nearly a year and were then released onto a world that had been under water for a year - and every one of them survived?

Do you accept the verifiable and undeniable evidence of evolution?

Do you believe that the gospel stories about the son of Yahweh are true?

Correct. They care only about what they WANT to be true - and if what IS true conflicts with what they WANT to be true, they will ignore what IS true. That is how what you call 'FAITH' works. It denies what is true in favour of a chosen belief. We'll see if that is true by your answers to the above.

I can only say that every atheist I know (and every one that I have ever met) will tell you that, if tomorrow it was proven undeniably that gods DO exist, they would renounce their atheism and become believers. How about you. Would you do the same if it were the other way around and your god was 100% disproved? I don't believe you would. You would still do as you do now - deny the evidence in favour of 'faith'.

Correct. They only care about what they WANT to be true (we are talking about in a religious context of course)

Do you think that there are only Christians killing themselves for 'Truth'.? What about Muslim martyrs or Hindus? They all believed they got it right. What about Jim Jones and his followers, the 'Heavens Gate' crowd, the thousand of Japanese soldiers that martyred themselves because they all BELIEVED 100% that they and only they, had the truth. There are infinitely more Muslim martyrs than there are Christians so their beliefs MUST be true right. I mean, aren't you guys always saying that the Jesus followers would not have died for a lie. Why do you think Muslim martyrs would die for a lie?

I care about what is true to the extent that I place it above what I WANT to be true. Unlike Christians

Only to someone who is more interested in a comfortable lie rather than uncomfortable facts


Ah! So they weren't REAL Christians!

Which is exactly what I'm saying and you are denying isn't it. They have decided what is true because they feel comfortable with it. Now just think about it. If Christianity was true, they would have remained Christians, however uncomfortable Christianity was to them. The point is that we cannot DECIDE what is true. Something is true or it isn't, no matter what we believe. There is no middle ground. So for someone to leave the 'Truth' of Christianity and follow the 'Truth' of Hinduism clearly indicated that what is actually true is not on their agenda, only what they BELIEVE to be true. The only truth they are interested in is the 'truth' that they are comfortable with.

Truth SHOULDN'T be determined by popular vote but unfortunately, it is. Just look at history.

Your religious beliefs ARE in a different category and you HAVE arrived at them through a different process... and I'll prove it. You see, you use EXACTLY the same process of logic, reason and common sense (and I'm not even touching on science) as the rest of us to conclude that pixies, goblins, fairies, leprechauns, Bigfoot, Yeti (and any other supernatural entity you don't believe in) do not exist. Yet when it comes to your god belief, you take all that logic, reason and common sense, open the window and throw it out. You rely instead on 'Faith' - because you know that if you did use the same method of logic, reason and common sense that you use to analyse the existence of leprechauns to analyse the existence of gods, you would come to the exact same conclusion that you do about leprechauns.

Hence your religious beliefs ARE in a different category and ARE arrived at by a different process, to your other beliefs.
Mostly an excellent post. But there are thinking people who belong to some faiths.
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