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Old 06-27-2019, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,341,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Mostly an excellent post. But there are thinking people who belong to some faiths.
Maybe so. The problem is that they are not 'thinking' when they are dealing with their 'faith'.
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Old 06-27-2019, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Maybe so. The problem is that they are not 'thinking' when they are dealing with their 'faith'.
I can only talk about the religions I have been personally involved in. So let me give you an example of what I mean with Buddhism.

As a religion, I have very similar criticisms with Buddhism as I do with christianity. Namely that most Buddhists simply listen to monks going through the ceremonies...often in Pali...a language the "faithful" don't even understand. It is rote and unthinking. And it's wrapped up with a lot of animism and culture that have nothing to do with real Buddhist thought. On the other hand, there are Buddhists who do what we are supposed to do. Read or listen to the Buddhist scriptures, REALLY think about the teaching, test the teaching, see how (or even if) it can fit into our lives, and accept it or reject it (with rejection possibly being temporary, but also possibly permanent).
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Old 06-27-2019, 09:09 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 4,996,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
No. From living on this planet for 70 years...but let's put it to the test. Do you believe that Yahweh once flooded the Earth to a depth of 5 miles and that the ancestors of every single living thing alive today and every organism that has since gone extinct, once fitted onto a boat that was built by a 100 year old man, stayed on it for nearly a year and were then released onto a world that had been under water for a year - and every one of them survived?

Do you accept the verifiable and undeniable evidence of evolution?

Do you believe that the gospel stories about the son of Yahweh are true?

Correct. They care only about what they WANT to be true - and if what IS true conflicts with what they WANT to be true, they will ignore what IS true. That is how what you call 'FAITH' works. It denies what is true in favour of a chosen belief. We'll see if that is true by your answers to the above.

I can only say that every atheist I know (and every one that I have ever met) will tell you that, if tomorrow it was proven undeniably that gods DO exist, they would renounce their atheism and become believers. How about you. Would you do the same if it were the other way around and your god was 100% disproved? I don't believe you would. You would still do as you do now - deny the evidence in favour of 'faith'.

Correct. They only care about what they WANT to be true (we are talking about in a religious context of course)

Do you think that there are only Christians killing themselves for 'Truth'.? What about Muslim martyrs or Hindus? They all believed they got it right. What about Jim Jones and his followers, the 'Heavens Gate' crowd, the thousand of Japanese soldiers that martyred themselves because they all BELIEVED 100% that they and only they, had the truth. There are infinitely more Muslim martyrs than there are Christians so their beliefs MUST be true right. I mean, aren't you guys always saying that the Jesus followers would not have died for a lie. Why do you think Muslim martyrs would die for a lie?

I care about what is true to the extent that I place it above what I WANT to be true. Unlike Christians

Only to someone who is more interested in a comfortable lie rather than uncomfortable facts


Ah! So they weren't REAL Christians!

Which is exactly what I'm saying and you are denying isn't it. They have decided what is true because they feel comfortable with it. Now just think about it. If Christianity was true, they would have remained Christians, however uncomfortable Christianity was to them. The point is that we cannot DECIDE what is true. Something is true or it isn't, no matter what we believe. There is no middle ground. So for someone to leave the 'Truth' of Christianity and follow the 'Truth' of Hinduism clearly indicated that what is actually true is not on their agenda, only what they BELIEVE to be true. The only truth they are interested in is the 'truth' that they are comfortable with.

Truth SHOULDN'T be determined by popular vote but unfortunately, it is. Just look at history.

Your religious beliefs ARE in a different category and you HAVE arrived at them through a different process... and I'll prove it. You see, you use EXACTLY the same process of logic, reason and common sense (and I'm not even touching on science) as the rest of us to conclude that pixies, goblins, fairies, leprechauns, Bigfoot, Yeti (and any other supernatural entity you don't believe in) do not exist. Yet when it comes to your god belief, you take all that logic, reason and common sense, open the window and throw it out. You rely instead on 'Faith' - because you know that if you did use the same method of logic, reason and common sense that you use to analyse the existence of leprechauns to analyse the existence of gods, you would come to the exact same conclusion that you do about leprechauns.

Hence your religious beliefs ARE in a different category and ARE arrived at by a different process, to your other beliefs.
list the properties of what they call god and compare that list to what we know about the system that surrounds them.

make a relative validity compassion to what lines up and what doesn't.

form a belief from that.

fundy think types base what is true or not true on their personal statements of belief about god/religion. They answer to dogma not thinking.
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Old 06-27-2019, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,341,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Can I rep that? No, I can't but it is the sort of post I wish I'd written. That's not mindless shoulder slapping, but appreciation of how you took a quite good post as Christian apologetics go, and you filleted it. Not just slammed it but proved it wrong. That's good posting.
Ta muchly comrade citizen! The cheque is in the post.
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Old 06-28-2019, 01:42 AM
 
39,075 posts, read 10,842,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Ta muchly comrade citizen! The cheque is in the post.
Thank you. I shall have to consider increasing my fee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Mostly an excellent post. But there are thinking people who belong to some faiths.
Ah, yes. But the problem is almost always they think within the box. The thinking is so often done within the mental box of faith to make the faith valid. of course, if they don't do that, they will often end up having doubts and questions. Which is why faith, good, doubt, bad.
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Old 06-28-2019, 05:19 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,341,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Ah, yes. But the problem is almost always they think within the box. The thinking is so often done within the mental box of faith to make the faith valid. of course, if they don't do that, they will often end up having doubts and questions. Which is why faith, good, doubt, bad.
Exactly comrade citizen. You have it nailed.
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Old 06-28-2019, 06:04 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 4,996,362 times
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you got that right comrade.

some atheist confuse religion with describing the system we are in openly and honestly independent of a statement of belief about religious/god.

they cannot think outside of that box. The are totally defined by the anti-religious/god sect of atheism box.
They make every choice in life by asking themselves how the choice lines up with anti-god dogma.

"religionist" fits
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Old 06-29-2019, 05:00 PM
 
Location: NSW
2,740 posts, read 1,866,118 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean1the1 View Post
It seems that religion is totally dependant on where one was born, and grew up. Based on this observation I find it hard to believe that I'm somehow "special" and born into the "right" religion. It seems almost arrogant, and unfair to people who haven't been exposed to religion to be in the wrong.
Absolutely this is correct, and even more often than not, the denomination or branch of a religion as well.
Even within Christianity, the divisions are often hostile and deep-rooted.
But on the original question, it begs the question, are people born on North Sentinel Island (pagans), or those in a Hindu or Buddhist country damned, merely due to being born into a religious system?
And those that are born into an irreligious background, who are now the majority in many western countries?
These questions will always stump the Fundamentalist Christian, who will still say there are no reasons or valid excuses for not converting to Christianity.
And whether that is from birth, or at the 11th hour or on their deathbed, it does not matter.
Don't worry, I have even seen and read from Evangelicals celebrating a loved one also leaving Catholicism, and becoming born again and a "real believer", just before death.
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Old 06-29-2019, 05:50 PM
 
13,493 posts, read 4,996,362 times
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lmao, doesn't take much to stump a fundy from down undy.
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Old 06-30-2019, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
6,859 posts, read 6,191,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41 View Post
But on the original question, it begs the question, are people born on North Sentinel Island (pagans), or those in a Hindu or Buddhist country damned, merely due to being born into a religious system?
These questions will always stump the Fundamentalist Christian, who will still say there are no reasons or valid excuses for not converting to Christianity.
That's one reason why sending yourself as "savior" 2000 years ago was really sort of jumping the gun. I guess God got impatient with himself.
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