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Old 07-01-2019, 11:53 PM
 
Location: California USA
918 posts, read 624,105 times
Reputation: 279

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I tend to agree -- at least up to a point. Any book written by an ex-anything is going to be pretty highly negatively biased, be it "Leaving the Witnesses," "Leaving Mormonism," "Leaving Catholicism," "Leaving Christianity" or "Leaving Islam." On the other hand, I think it's probably safe to say -- based on things JWs on this forum have posted -- that there really is a huge emphasis on Armageddon and quite a strong discouragement against pursuing a higher education, striving for personal excellence or trying to better one's living situation. That alone bugs me enough to keep me at arms length from the JWs.
"Intelligence plus character that is the goal of true education"-Martin Luther King Jr.

"A well made head rather than a well filled head"-Michel de Montaigne

I disagree with the statement that JWs do not strive for personal excellence or trying to better one's living situation. JWs as a group share a common outlook about education and that is such education should help one become a productive member of society. This means not only learning the necessary life skills to provide for themselves and their families but also building moral character. It also means when you set out to do a task you do your best.

If by higher education you mean a college education well I'm a college grad myself. However, I have encountered people both Witnesses and non Witnesses who do not have a college degree yet are doing well financially compared to some with a college education. In fact, there are numerous news reports about the incredible amount of debt that college graduates are faced with. It's disproportionate to the salary they receive despite having that college education. This isn't to say that college degrees wont better one's living situation but in reality it depends on what field of study a person chooses.

I do agree about the proliferation of publications, programs etc written or focused on ex-(fill in the blank). I'm a former Catholic but I don't bash Catholicism nor its adherents. I've found a belief system that works better for me. I can only hope that these ex-_________ will eventually move on and find something that uplifts rather than tearing down.
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Old 07-03-2019, 04:18 PM
 
Location: minnesota
6,331 posts, read 2,115,480 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
"Intelligence plus character that is the goal of true education"-Martin Luther King Jr.

"A well made head rather than a well filled head"-Michel de Montaigne

I disagree with the statement that JWs do not strive for personal excellence or trying to better one's living situation. JWs as a group share a common outlook about education and that is such education should help one become a productive member of society. This means not only learning the necessary life skills to provide for themselves and their families but also building moral character. It also means when you set out to do a task you do your best.

If by higher education you mean a college education well I'm a college grad myself. However, I have encountered people both Witnesses and non Witnesses who do not have a college degree yet are doing well financially compared to some with a college education. In fact, there are numerous news reports about the incredible amount of debt that college graduates are faced with. It's disproportionate to the salary they receive despite having that college education. This isn't to say that college degrees wont better one's living situation but in reality it depends on what field of study a person chooses.

I do agree about the proliferation of publications, programs etc written or focused on ex-(fill in the blank). I'm a former Catholic but I don't bash Catholicism nor its adherents. I've found a belief system that works better for me. I can only hope that these ex-_________ will eventually move on and find something that uplifts rather than tearing down.
What? You don't refer to every other Christian denomination as "Christendom"? Don't you go door to door hoping to save people from their Catholics beliefs?

Edit: I've shared it before but this is Tony Morris who is a member of the Governing Body of JWs on education

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcJU-eY1TYg

Edit edit: LOL I forgot he called free thinking "the intellectual grippings of the mind" that leads indoctrinated JW children out of the group.

Last edited by L8Gr8Apost8; 07-03-2019 at 04:29 PM..
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,954 posts, read 22,094,309 times
Reputation: 10687
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
So we should believe the memoirs.
What they perceive is true for them. I wouldn't discount what they say happened to them, but I would also be interested to hear the other point of view -- because there always in another point of view.

Quote:
Now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
I am not. I am making a distinction between two different things, and you seem to be unable to understand that.

Quote:
You're willing to believe one, but not the other.
Nope. You've misunderstood me.

Quote:
Why? Because you seem to believe you can judge motive.
And because you are intent on insulting me, I see no reason to try to further clarify what I was saying. I won't waste my time with someone who has the opinion of me you seem to have.
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,954 posts, read 22,094,309 times
Reputation: 10687
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
What? You don't refer to every other Christian denomination as "Christendom"? Don't you go door to door hoping to save people from their Catholics beliefs?

Edit: I've shared it before but this is Tony Morris who is a member of the Governing Body of JWs on education


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcJU-eY1TYg

Edit edit: LOL I forgot he called free thinking "the intellectual grippings of the mind" that leads indoctrinated JW children out of the group.
Very interesting. So they believe in education, but only education that meets the JW's criteria for what should be taught. In other words, it sounds like they don't really want their members to explore other perspectives or ways of thinking about things. Personally, I don't call that an education.
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,954 posts, read 22,094,309 times
Reputation: 10687
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
I do agree about the proliferation of publications, programs etc written or focused on ex-(fill in the blank). I'm a former Catholic but I don't bash Catholicism nor its adherents. I've found a belief system that works better for me. I can only hope that these ex-_________ will eventually move on and find something that uplifts rather than tearing down.
Well, we do appear to be on the same page in this regard.
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Old 07-03-2019, 09:01 PM
 
Location: minnesota
6,331 posts, read 2,115,480 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Very interesting. So they believe in education, but only education that meets the JW's criteria for what should be taught. In other words, it sounds like they don't really want their members to explore other perspectives or ways of thinking about things. Personally, I don't call that an education.
Yeah, "divine education" is what they recommend. By that they mean reading the Watchtower publications. It is a cruel realization for many of us when we leave that we are, in fact, uneducated. We were made to believe that studying up on the magazines was the equivalent to a 4 year degree at any prestigious college. We really thought we knew our stuff.

Did you see at the very end where he suggested full-time ministry as the proper course for a young person. That means dedicated yourself to serving God's one true organization on earth full time.

I like how you acknowledge that we are speaking our truth and not ascribe malice to us. I personally believe everyone should do that. I was trained by the Watchtower to do that too. People who leave the Watchtower and speak out against it seem to get critiqued and accused of being big fat meanies with bad intentions. The Wathtower likes to paint themselves as some sweet innocent victim of us hate mongers or such. Would you like to know what the Watchtower says about me (and all the other exJWs you have talked to online)?

Apostates “quietly bring in” corruptive ideas. Like smugglers, they operate in a clandestine manner, subtly introducing apostate views. And just as a clever forger tries to pass phony documents, so apostates use “counterfeit words,” or false arguments, trying to pass their fabricated views as if they were true. They spread “deceptive teachings,” “twisting . . . the Scriptures” to fit their own ideas. (2 Pet. 2:1, 3, 13; 3:16) Clearly, apostates do not have our best interests at heart. Following them would only divert us from the road that leads to eternal life.
Well, apostates are “mentally diseased,” and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings. (1 Tim. 6:3, 4) Jehovah, the Great Physician, tells us to avoid contact with them. We know what he means, but are we determined to heed his warning in all respects?

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011524

Is that my game? Have I successfully stopped you from learning the Truth?
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Old 07-03-2019, 09:44 PM
 
Location: California USA
918 posts, read 624,105 times
Reputation: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Very interesting. So they believe in education, but only education that meets the JW's criteria for what should be taught. In other words, it sounds like they don't really want their members to explore other perspectives or ways of thinking about things. Personally, I don't call that an education.
Not all perspectives or ways of thinking about life lead to enlightenment. In fact, it can be detrimental to the personal relationship with God that sincere worshipers seek.

How so? The earliest Christians were Jewish. Up through the times of Jesus Jews had a different take (perspective) on various ideas regarding God, life, death etc and that carried over to the earliest Christians. Even modern day Judaism is different in certain beliefs compared to what the early Jews believed. The prevailing philosophy and the environment existing during the early Christian period was Greek influenced. Some of the central ideas that modern day Christians accept as the orthodox were actually not what early Christians believed.

Do your own research and explore other ways of thinking. There is much info about how Greek philosophy influenced Christianity and Judaism. For example, this is just one source (not affiliated with Jehovah's Witnesses) that shows the impact such philosophy had:

"The western tradition, catholic and protestant, evangelical and liberal, charismatic and
social-gospel, has managed for many centuries to screen out the central message of the
New Testament, which isn’t that we are to escape the world and go to heaven, but rather
that God’s sovereign, saving rule would come to birth ‘on earth as in heaven."
- https://digitalcommons.olivet.edu/cg...text=hist_mapt

I, and I'm not the only Jehovah's Witness parent, encouraged my children to learn about other perspectives. What do Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc believe? What are the basic teachings of evolution? Every high school biology class will expose students to evolution and JWs are no exception. My wife and I had discussions about the Bible, the Genesis account, and what evolution teaches with our children. It solidified their belief in an intelligent Creator. If a person is going to talk to people (eg preach and teach) one should have an understanding of the various ideas that will be encountered. However, obviously some had a different experience raised as JWs and my personal opinion is that's something between them and their parents.

Hopefully people will see the wisdom to be choosy about the time and energy devoted to certain perspectives and activities because not all are advantageous.

Not sure where the "JW criteria on what should be taught" comment is derived from. What is taught in the Bible isn't popular but for what its worth there is a Scriptural basis for being cautious about the time and energy committed to certain activities.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."-Colossians 2:8

“Stop storing up for yourselves treasures on the earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes,and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."-Matthew 6:19

"Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you."-Matthew 6:33
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Old 07-03-2019, 09:48 PM
 
Location: minnesota
6,331 posts, read 2,115,480 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
Not all perspectives or ways of thinking about life lead to enlightenment. In fact, it can be detrimental to the personal relationship with God that sincere worshipers seek.

How so? The earliest Christians were Jewish. Up through the times of Jesus Jews had a different take (perspective) on various ideas regarding God, life, death etc and that carried over to the earliest Christians. Even modern day Judaism is different in certain beliefs compared to what the early Jews believed. The prevailing philosophy and the environment existing during the early Christian period was Greek influenced. Some of the central ideas that modern day Christians accept as the orthodox were actually not what early Christians believed.

Do your own research and explore other ways of thinking. There is much info about how Greek philosophy influenced Christianity and Judaism. For example, this is just one source (not affiliated with Jehovah's Witnesses) that shows the impact such philosophy had:

"The western tradition, catholic and protestant, evangelical and liberal, charismatic and
social-gospel, has managed for many centuries to screen out the central message of the
New Testament, which isn’t that we are to escape the world and go to heaven, but rather
that God’s sovereign, saving rule would come to birth ‘on earth as in heaven."
- https://digitalcommons.olivet.edu/cg...text=hist_mapt

I, and I'm not the only Jehovah's Witness parent, encouraged my children to learn about other perspectives. What do Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc believe? What are the basic teachings of evolution? Every high school biology class will expose students to evolution and JWs are no exception. My wife and I had discussions about the Bible, the Genesis account, and what evolution teaches with our children. It solidified their belief in an intelligent Creator. If a person is going to talk to people (eg preach and teach) one should have an understanding of the various ideas that will be encountered. However, obviously some had a different experience raised as JWs and my personal opinion is that's something between them and their parents.

Hopefully people will see the wisdom to be choosy about the time and energy devoted to certain perspectives and activities because not all are advantageous.

Not sure where the "JW criteria on what should be taught" comment is derived from. What is taught in the Bible isn't popular but for what its worth there is a Scriptural basis for being cautious about the time and energy committed to certain activities.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."-Colossians 2:8

“Stop storing up for yourselves treasures on the earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes,and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."-Matthew 6:19

"Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you."-Matthew 6:33

I'd be hellah surprised if you were actually baptized. I get a read from you that your wife joined and is probably really into it and you come along for meetings once in awhile and like the fellowship but aren't that into it. Do you go in service?
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Old 07-03-2019, 09:53 PM
 
Location: California USA
918 posts, read 624,105 times
Reputation: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
I do agree about the proliferation of publications, programs etc written or focused on ex-(fill in the blank). I'm a former Catholic but I don't bash Catholicism nor its adherents. I've found a belief system that works better for me. I can only hope that these ex-_________ will eventually move on and find something that uplifts rather than tearing down.

Originally Posted by Katzpur
Well, we do appear to be on the same page in this regard
.


We are. We don't have to agree on doctrines, lifestyles etc, but it's important to show respect to individuals. Gay, straight, transgender, Black, White, Mormon, Muslim, atheist... we need to live in peace with our fellow man.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,954 posts, read 22,094,309 times
Reputation: 10687
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
Is that my game? Have I successfully stopped you from learning the Truth?
Actually, I've learned a great deal from you!
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