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Old 07-01-2019, 03:03 PM
 
4,410 posts, read 1,637,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
I am not criticizing faith as a positive attitude. If there were good reasons to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin these beliefs would necessarily form part of our rational description of the universe. Faith is nothing more than the license that religious people give one another to believe such propositions when reasons fail.

If we really don't know what's after death why not say "I don't know" Religious fundamentalists are convinced they know what happens after death to non-believers.
There are many people who say we don't know (and we don't care either), and then that's the end of it for them. We call them Agnostics.

Others may think, I don't know but I am curious and I would like to know.

The underline thought has driven the entire human kind forward in every aspect of life.
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Old 07-01-2019, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Seattle
603 posts, read 151,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
"Religion is based primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing – fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things."- Bertrand
Yeah, I'd say religion has some cultural value as a group survival tool based on a fear response. Groups that share a self-enforcing common culture probably survive fear-inducing events like war and natural hardship better. Thus it was retained and promoted, perhaps even being selectively bred for at some point.

But it's not the only cultural element based on fear of the unknown: police, firemen, hospitals, armies, spies, door locks, alarms, guns, air bags, warning labels, many political campaigns, warning adverts, food recalls, terrorists, store cameras, first aid kits, body armor, passports, lawyers, safety railings, insurance, &c. Just saying religion isn't particularly unique in that regard.
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Old 07-01-2019, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,766 posts, read 4,958,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, Bertrand is certainly entitled to make his own sweeping generalizations, but his experience with religion doesn't even come close to mine.
IKR, If I didn't believe in God, I would be so broken right now because when I get downhearted, and broken, all I have is God, and so where would I run to if there was not my belief in God?

I don't have anyone else, I could never figure out what other people do in their times of trouble, I run to hope, and that is his name,'' HOPE.''

Knowing that he is with me is the only thing between me and certain suicide lol, I would really be without hope altogether, and mentality means everything, hope can change a person and give him strength that without hope, there is nothing to keep fighting for, nothing to hope on, and nobody else to fall back on.
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Old 07-01-2019, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
2,186 posts, read 789,666 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Call it them "white lies" if that's how you see it. I'll call them "beliefs." And as long as my beliefs aren't hurting you, there's no earthly reason why it should bother you that I have them. Furthermore, if I may be permitted to actually stick to your OP, my beliefs have never been "fear based." Everybody grieves when someone they love dies, whether they believe in an afterlife or not. So, since nobody really knows for sure what happens after death, why is it so awful to believe that death is not the end after all? If it turns out we're wrong and you're right, how will having had a genuine belief that brings us comfort really such a bad thing?
Imo, the problem with this thinking is that it devalues this finite life we have. Also, as a former Christian, I didn’t really like the idea of being told I was a worthless sinner who achieved nothing personally and that I owed the church 10% of my earnings. I especially didn’t like constantly questioning my salvation and fearing eternal torment. This is just a fraction of the cost of the “maybe” afterlife.
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Old 07-01-2019, 05:04 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
Imo, the problem with this thinking is that it devalues this finite life we have. Also, as a former Christian, I didnít really like the idea of being told I was a worthless sinner who achieved nothing personally and that I owed the church 10% of my earnings. I especially didnít like constantly questioning my salvation and fearing eternal torment. This is just a fraction of the cost of the ďmaybeĒ afterlife.

This is why I say "To belong to any religion is baggage but to belong to Christianity is ocean freight."

p
public domain
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Old 07-01-2019, 05:39 PM
 
367 posts, read 356,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
There are many people who say we don't know (and we don't care either), and then that's the end of it for them. We call them Agnostics.

Others may think, I don't know but I am curious and I would like to know.

The underline thought has driven the entire human kind forward in every aspect of life.
Not many Agnostics compared to Christians.

Has the Islamic nation moved forward in every aspect? There are still many today that will kill for their beliefs.
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Old 07-01-2019, 06:18 PM
 
367 posts, read 356,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
The telestial kingdom is still Heaven and consequently, far, far better than earth ever was or will be. Outer Darkness is something else entirely. In order to end up there, one would have to have 100% proof that Jesus Christ was God and then turn around and flatly deny it. In other words, hardly anyone is going to end up there. Mormons are essentially universalists in their concept of the afterlife.
. According to what Iíve read there is still pain and suffering in the Telestial kingdom.


Quote:


Thanks for your perspective. Sorry if I don't agree with it.
Thatís fine to have your own personal truth but your personal truth is not right for the rest of the world, especially considering Mormonism is a religion founded by a human.
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Old 07-01-2019, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,766 posts, read 4,958,159 times
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But everyone doesn't get a trophy, it is said that the works of each man will be tested by fire, and those who are able to stand in the flames without them and their works catching on fire will recieve a reward.

That work we are building is a new house, and we are presently inside a house right now, but the house we are building is a new immortal house, a body.

Salvation is extreemly broad where only a few will have salvation AND reward.
While salvation is life and blessing to continue, reward is when you have actually arrived at the final destination.

Jesus shows us the difference between the least in the kingdom and the greatest, and in between these two is a gulf that cannot be crossed, those first Gentile converts knew it was a race, they all sacrificed in pain and suffering BECAUSE they sought a better resurrection, because they knew the difference in the 3, and they were forever pressing and progressing to the coming of the Lord in their own lives.

Paul was saddened and perplexed because after all his efforts and teachings, many remained his little babies on milk who were not yet born again after all that time and Paul told them this, that they were his little babies on the milk of the word until such a time came that Jesus would finally be formed in them as a new creature after much study, they would transfer from being Paul's children to mature sons of Christ, reborn.

Why must they be born again?

Because they were not born of the chosen, Jesus came offering Gentiles a marriage, not Jews, Jews were already sons of God, and now Gentiles could have an actual chance of dying to the Gentiles they were, and they would be grafted and adopted INTO the chosen to become co-heirs with the chosen under the promise spoken to the ten lost tribes that became Gentiles.

We are running a race as Gentiles, and that race is to become grafted and adopted into Israel to become one with all Jews.

''Do any Jews look at you and consider that you are one with Israel in the same religion, that when people hear you speak, they think your Jewish?''

There is no difference in Gentile and Jew when the Gentile becomes a Jew, and even when Revelation was written, there were many Gentiles claiming to be Jews who were not Jews.

Had they claimed the prize?

A Jew stood up and said to Gentiles,'' Come and marry a Jew that you will be redeemed in with the chosen people.''

Jesus didn't come offering a betrothal for a Jew to marry a Jew to become a Jew, he came as a Jew offering a promised betrothal to Gentiles recorded in Hosea 2.

This is a race, there is reward, but only one person wins a race, and if people do not even know they are in a race for a prize, will they run?

Yeah, that is like speaking of fallen tree that fall in the woods and nobody hears it's falling.

The trophy of all trophies.
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Old 07-01-2019, 07:27 PM
 
664 posts, read 144,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Its very obvious, religion in general lends to a more civil and orderly society. people behave themselves because they fear a judgement of all their earthly actions, even thoughts!
No, it's not obvious at all. That claim is unexamined dogma. If you'd actually examined it, you'd find that it is clearly not so at all.

Do you even have any idea how to test the assertion? It's quite easy: you simply compare the behavior of more religious places with less religious places. Your claim predicts that the more religious places with have civility and order. Through the comparison, we see if the claim holds up.

Example:
The American South is the most religious part of the United States, while upper New England the least irreligious. Your claim predicts that the South will be relatively peaceful compared to a relatively strife-torn upper New England. Of course, the exact opposite is true - the South has the highest violent crime rate on the United States, as well as the highest incarceration rate. New England has the lowest of both rates.

Care to compare Scandinavia with the Middle East?
Canada with Central America?
Japan with the Philippines?
The UK with Nigeria?

There is no clear correlation as you suggest. In fact, the general trend is in the opposite direction.

You can also look at history. The history of the United States is one of generally decreasing religiosity. Yet violent crime during that time has waxed and waned independent of the decrease in belief and practice. We were far more religious when we spend four years killing each other in the orgy of disorder and uncivility called the Civil War. The Middle Ages was a period of not only extreme piety but virtually unchecked warfare, both between states and between sub-state lords.

You have your dogma and nothing more. And it is demonstrably wrong dogma.
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Old 07-01-2019, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,954 posts, read 22,094,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
Imo, the problem with this thinking is that it devalues this finite life we have.
I'm sorry to hear that. To me, it gives even greater value to the life I have now, as I see this life as an important part of a continuum that began before I was born and will continue after I die.

Quote:
Also, as a former Christian, I didnít really like the idea of being told I was a worthless sinner who achieved nothing personally and that I owed the church 10% of my earnings.
Again, Christian churches seem to differ a lot. I have never in my life been told that I was a worthless sinner, or someone who was born in sin and deserved to spend eternity in Hell if I didn't hold to certain beliefs.

Quote:
I especially didnít like constantly questioning my salvation and fearing eternal torment. This is just a fraction of the cost of the ďmaybeĒ afterlife.
It sounds as if you were probably a member of a fundamentalist denomination. I've seriously never questioned my salvation or anybody else's, for that matter.
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