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Old 07-11-2019, 04:28 AM
 
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Romans 3:4. This is the first reference I could find in your post so I'll take that one.

Paul was bringing to light the true gospel as found in the Psalms of David. To me it all seems so simple. It is very simple. The Psalms are presenting a simple message, but a message that is also profound. If we truly love God we will love our neighbor. And there is no other way that will work. Perhaps just trusting God and taking a step in faith by loving our neighbor is the answer.

You have written some strange things which sound very convoluted, at least to me. It has nothing at all to do with anything in the this verse that you posted. Loving God is something that anyone should understand, even a child. If there is something in Romans that doesn't make sense beyond that, then why do you even worry about it? If you can read Psalm 1 (as an example) and understand the love of God, then you don't even need Romans. Faith is not about reading and interpreting texts. If you don't have faith and don't trust in God then the texts have 0% meaning or value.

EDIT: Arach, this could also apply to your post immediately above. I will just leave it with that for now.
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Old 07-11-2019, 04:42 AM
 
39,091 posts, read 10,849,315 times
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Ozzy... my dear old mate and sparring partner. Your post makes no sense outside the mental box of faith.

You are arguing that Paul, Acts, OT, is all about Jesus and never mind the details, just have faith, ignore the problems and suppose that it all makes sense to God.

You do that if you want, but to those who have doubts and want to see whether they can be resolved, my $pl 2 - worth is that Paul is a fiddler, a dissembler and a liar, and I can give evidence-based reasons why I think so. It may seem convoluted, but that's because Paul's reasoning is convoluted.

It isn't actually hard to understand, but it is hard to accept when one has been indoctrinated to believe that Jesus taught the stuff in the gospels to the disciples, They taught it to Paul and he taught it to us.

No, No and no again. Even if we suppose the substance of the gospels were taught by Jesus to James and Cephas/Peter (the only ones of the disciples that Paul mentions) Paul's theology is all his own work, with authority from the Jesus he met in heaven. None of it is from 'men', and you can take Paul's word for that, if you can't take mine.

P.s folks, I had to mention this before I forget.

You know Godwin's law? 'The first one to mention Hitler loses the argument'?. I propose Arq's law - the first one to mention "..a 6 year old could.." is admitting that he really has no case case, so he is trying to shame you into accepting the claim without question.

Notorious example. Kent Hovind's 'a 6 year old could recognise "Kinds".
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:39 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 4,999,286 times
Reputation: 1365
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Romans 3:4. This is the first reference I could find in your post so I'll take that one.

Paul was bringing to light the true gospel as found in the Psalms of David. To me it all seems so simple. It is very simple. The Psalms are presenting a simple message, but a message that is also profound. If we truly love God we will love our neighbor. And there is no other way that will work. Perhaps just trusting God and taking a step in faith by loving our neighbor is the answer.

You have written some strange things which sound very convoluted, at least to me. It has nothing at all to do with anything in the this verse that you posted. Loving God is something that anyone should understand, even a child. If there is something in Romans that doesn't make sense beyond that, then why do you even worry about it? If you can read Psalm 1 (as an example) and understand the love of God, then you don't even need Romans. Faith is not about reading and interpreting texts. If you don't have faith and don't trust in God then the texts have 0% meaning or value.

EDIT: Arach, this could also apply to your post immediately above. I will just leave it with that for now.
yes, it apply's directly actually. It shows that you are talking about great ideas wrapped in a functional package of Jesus.

I have absolutely no problem with it; actually. the problem I have is that you don't understand its a functional package.

for example. we could modify them bit as needed.

"faith saves" vs "faith saving is proof of Jesus rising"
or
"faith in Jesus saves" vs "faith in love and compassion saves"

they are not the same. and its actually a huge problem in this Fundy think war on each other. (fundy theism and fundy atheism war).

we have "jesus saves" vs "anti-jesus saves"

both are so far off of observations that they they can't coexist outside of war. They are so far away from common sense that both sides have to forbid any science that shows the other side has a point.


Do you want to continue the war by making it "us" vs "them"? There is absolutely no need to say paul tried to intentionally deceive us. But, at the same time, there is no reason to say paul is proof of some super secrete understanding that we all have.
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:44 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 4,999,286 times
Reputation: 1365
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Ozzy... my dear old mate and sparring partner. Your post makes no sense outside the mental box of faith.

You are arguing that Paul, Acts, OT, is all about Jesus and never mind the details, just have faith, ignore the problems and suppose that it all makes sense to God.

You do that if you want, but to those who have doubts and want to see whether they can be resolved, my $pl 2 - worth is that Paul is a fiddler, a dissembler and a liar, and I can give evidence-based reasons why I think so. It may seem convoluted, but that's because Paul's reasoning is convoluted.

It isn't actually hard to understand, but it is hard to accept when one has been indoctrinated to believe that Jesus taught the stuff in the gospels to the disciples, They taught it to Paul and he taught it to us.

No, No and no again. Even if we suppose the substance of the gospels were taught by Jesus to James and Cephas/Peter (the only ones of the disciples that Paul mentions) Paul's theology is all his own work, with authority from the Jesus he met in heaven. None of it is from 'men', and you can take Paul's word for that, if you can't take mine.

P.s folks, I had to mention this before I forget.

You know Godwin's law? 'The first one to mention Hitler loses the argument'?. I propose Arq's law - the first one to mention "..a 6 year old could.." is admitting that he really has no case case, so he is trying to shame you into accepting the claim without question.

Notorious example. Kent Hovind's 'a 6 year old could recognise "Kinds".
" ... is that Paul is a fiddler, a dissembler and a liar ..."

do you want to repeat what you told me when I first got here? you know "no practical value to me in stopping religion.", " don't talk about that theist can use it and make atheism harder to sell." and my favorite "due to my atheism I have to answer (insert any blind faith statement in discussing how the universe works) ... "

do you want to debate why using science data to form a belief in god is a bad thing?

If they say jesus is resurrected in those that love. then who is resurrected in the way you have chossen to crusade against religion?

They banned Jesus by killing him. what did you do by lobbying so hard to align the system we are in to the properties of a god thing?
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Old 07-11-2019, 04:20 PM
 
10,550 posts, read 12,744,353 times
Reputation: 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
yes, it apply's directly actually. It shows that you are talking about great ideas wrapped in a functional package of Jesus.

I have absolutely no problem with it; actually. the problem I have is that you don't understand its a functional package.

for example. we could modify them bit as needed.

"faith saves" vs "faith saving is proof of Jesus rising"
or
"faith in Jesus saves" vs "faith in love and compassion saves"

they are not the same. and its actually a huge problem in this Fundy think war on each other. (fundy theism and fundy atheism war).

we have "jesus saves" vs "anti-jesus saves"

both are so far off of observations that they they can't coexist outside of war. They are so far away from common sense that both sides have to forbid any science that shows the other side has a point.


Do you want to continue the war by making it "us" vs "them"? There is absolutely no need to say paul tried to intentionally deceive us. But, at the same time, there is no reason to say paul is proof of some super secrete understanding that we all have.
It's not about a secret understanding. Paul just showed how simple faith was actually.

I am surprised to find that it is really the Psalms which are the most inspiring thing in the Bible. In my opinion they are the only book that one needs in the entire Bible. If you have read the Bible even once, you could spend the rest of your life with only that book.
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Old 07-11-2019, 06:30 PM
 
39,091 posts, read 10,849,315 times
Reputation: 5087
Yes, it's all fine and dandy. Just don't ask questions, or ignore the answers if you do.

Your choice. But it isn't a mindset that commends itself to me in the least.
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Old 07-11-2019, 09:50 PM
 
10,550 posts, read 12,744,353 times
Reputation: 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Yes, it's all fine and dandy. Just don't ask questions, or ignore the answers if you do.

Your choice. But it isn't a mindset that commends itself to me in the least.
No, you're not missing much. It's like, eh, I can take it or leave it.
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Old 07-12-2019, 03:40 AM
 
39,091 posts, read 10,849,315 times
Reputation: 5087
Sure. And we want to make sure it stays that way. That's why some Theists - even some Christians - see the need to support the 'Nones'. This in intended to guarantee your right to believe what you like, to cherry pick the Bible as you like and walks out of a church that you don't like.

But the only thing that seems to count is that we are atheists. End of debate.
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Old 07-12-2019, 04:44 AM
 
10,550 posts, read 12,744,353 times
Reputation: 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Sure. And we want to make sure it stays that way. That's why some Theists - even some Christians - see the need to support the 'Nones'. This in intended to guarantee your right to believe what you like, to cherry pick the Bible as you like and walks out of a church that you don't like.

But the only thing that seems to count is that we are atheists. End of debate.
You are officially ending the debate between theists and atheists? Thank you.
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Old 07-12-2019, 06:35 AM
 
39,091 posts, read 10,849,315 times
Reputation: 5087
The debate has long been ended - the theists just keep it going by not listening to us. The debate abouit whether we need religion or not will end as soon as the majority supports the Nones; not that i see that happening anytime soon.

As to 'ending the debate' so that you can slide off without admitting anything I put to you, you could always do that anytime you want. But I would bet that you'll be back trying to pick holes in what we post, anyway. And i will answer and you will then post evasions and irrelevancies as usual.
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