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Old 07-01-2019, 04:05 PM
 
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So in the debates on YouTube I have watched over the years (and I have watch at least 40 debates on the Resurrection) one item stands out coming from the apologists to bolster faith in Jesus' resurrection: the so-called "Earliest credal statement in Christianity":

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Now this one passage in verse 4 intrigued me. I am pretty familiar with the Bible as a former Christian and I don't ever recall reading anything about Jesus being predicted to rise the 3rd day in the Old Testament. So after years of wondering about this on and off I finally decided to wise up and google it. And what do you think Paul is referring to when he says "according to the scriptures"? Now I should preface the answer with this: All Christians take this "creed' seriously as being definitely dated back to at least 3 years after Jesus' resurrection. Why? Because all the apologists keep hammering this point home. Case in point:

"However, a wide range of scholars believes the earliest Christian creed was formulated and taught less than five years after the death and Resurrection."

So when Paul says, "that he was raised on the third day according to the [Old Testament] Scriptures" which verse(es) is Paul referring to? Well, actually it turns out to be a verse NOT about Jesus but about the Hebrews, and by extension in Paul's universe, all who believe in Jesus. The verse is none other than Hosea 6:1-2

1. "Come, let us return to the Lord. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds. 2. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

So that's it. The verse doesn't refer to Jesus, or the Messiah, or to anything having to do with Jesus' resurrection. It's basically just Hosea saying that yahweh will restore his people after three days. And just because the number three is mentioned in the verse and because Paul believed Jesus rose after three days Paul ties this Hosea verse to Jesus' resurrection. THAT'S IT!!!!

Occasionally, an apologist will throw out Jesus' own reference to Jonas being in the belly of the whale for three days as proof Jesus rose on the third day but again, the Old Testament Jonas chapter has nothing whatsoever to do with a Messiah figure rising from the dead. More apologetic claptrap.

This is part and parcel of all the lies that Christianity is founded on. This verse is no more proof of Jesus' resurrection than Julius Caesar's tome, The Gallic Wars.
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Old 07-02-2019, 02:18 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,037 posts, read 936,220 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
So in the debates on YouTube I have watched over the years (and I have watch at least 40 debates on the Resurrection) one item stands out coming from the apologists to bolster faith in Jesus' resurrection: the so-called "Earliest credal statement in Christianity":

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Now this one passage in verse 4 intrigued me. I am pretty familiar with the Bible as a former Christian and I don't ever recall reading anything about Jesus being predicted to rise the 3rd day in the Old Testament. So after years of wondering about this on and off I finally decided to wise up and google it. And what do you think Paul is referring to when he says "according to the scriptures"? Now I should preface the answer with this: All Christians take this "creed' seriously as being definitely dated back to at least 3 years after Jesus' resurrection. Why? Because all the apologists keep hammering this point home. Case in point:

"However, a wide range of scholars believes the earliest Christian creed was formulated and taught less than five years after the death and Resurrection."

So when Paul says, "that he was raised on the third day according to the [Old Testament] Scriptures" which verse(es) is Paul referring to? Well, actually it turns out to be a verse NOT about Jesus but about the Hebrews, and by extension in Paul's universe, all who believe in Jesus. The verse is none other than Hosea 6:1-2

1. "Come, let us return to the Lord. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds. 2. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

So that's it. The verse doesn't refer to Jesus, or the Messiah, or to anything having to do with Jesus' resurrection. It's basically just Hosea saying that yahweh will restore his people after three days. And just because the number three is mentioned in the verse and because Paul believed Jesus rose after three days Paul ties this Hosea verse to Jesus' resurrection. THAT'S IT!!!!

Occasionally, an apologist will throw out Jesus' own reference to Jonas being in the belly of the whale for three days as proof Jesus rose on the third day but again, the Old Testament Jonas chapter has nothing whatsoever to do with a Messiah figure rising from the dead. More apologetic claptrap.

This is part and parcel of all the lies that Christianity is founded on. This verse is no more proof of Jesus' resurrection than Julius Caesar's tome, The Gallic Wars.
The problem* is that many Jews of that time believed OT passages often had more than one meaning, one in clear text, the other hidden. So Paul is not deceiving anyone, he may have actually believed Jesus (who he said is an angel) was raised on the third day.

The important point is that Paul says this is revealed in scripture, so it was not based on an actual event**. But Paul never says this was a historical event, so we do not know where Paul thought Jesus was raised. All we know is Paul know of a Jesus from OT scripture*** or through revelation.

* actually A problem, there is some historians who believe this passage is an interpolation (while a few argue it is an interpolation in an interpolation).

** unless it was a prediction of an actual event, but that may be reading the fictional gospels stories based on this passage back into this passage.

*** most of the time, Paul does quote 1 passage that is not a quote of the OT.
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Old 07-02-2019, 05:00 AM
 
10,523 posts, read 12,733,337 times
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Brilliant analysis.
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Old 07-02-2019, 05:41 AM
 
13,476 posts, read 4,986,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
So in the debates on YouTube I have watched over the years (and I have watch at least 40 debates on the Resurrection) one item stands out coming from the apologists to bolster faith in Jesus' resurrection: the so-called "Earliest credal statement in Christianity":

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Now this one passage in verse 4 intrigued me. I am pretty familiar with the Bible as a former Christian and I don't ever recall reading anything about Jesus being predicted to rise the 3rd day in the Old Testament. So after years of wondering about this on and off I finally decided to wise up and google it. And what do you think Paul is referring to when he says "according to the scriptures"? Now I should preface the answer with this: All Christians take this "creed' seriously as being definitely dated back to at least 3 years after Jesus' resurrection. Why? Because all the apologists keep hammering this point home. Case in point:

"However, a wide range of scholars believes the earliest Christian creed was formulated and taught less than five years after the death and Resurrection."

So when Paul says, "that he was raised on the third day according to the [Old Testament] Scriptures" which verse(es) is Paul referring to? Well, actually it turns out to be a verse NOT about Jesus but about the Hebrews, and by extension in Paul's universe, all who believe in Jesus. The verse is none other than Hosea 6:1-2

1. "Come, let us return to the Lord. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds. 2. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

So that's it. The verse doesn't refer to Jesus, or the Messiah, or to anything having to do with Jesus' resurrection. It's basically just Hosea saying that yahweh will restore his people after three days. And just because the number three is mentioned in the verse and because Paul believed Jesus rose after three days Paul ties this Hosea verse to Jesus' resurrection. THAT'S IT!!!!

Occasionally, an apologist will throw out Jesus' own reference to Jonas being in the belly of the whale for three days as proof Jesus rose on the third day but again, the Old Testament Jonas chapter has nothing whatsoever to do with a Messiah figure rising from the dead. More apologetic claptrap.

This is part and parcel of all the lies that Christianity is founded on. This verse is no more proof of Jesus' resurrection than Julius Caesar's tome, The Gallic Wars.
nobody has ever seen a person come back as they described in the bible. literally that is.

there is no need to even draw a conclusion with a person died and rose. Nothing like that to a real event.
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Old 07-02-2019, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,362 posts, read 12,119,741 times
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Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
nobody has ever seen a person come back as
they described in the bible. literally that is.
I guess Paramahansa Yogananda was lying, then....that he was hugging and hanging
out with his deceased guru, Sri Yukteswar...not in spirit form.

Most people that say things similar to this, Arach, have not read
many or any Eastern things, no offense... nor many, so-called, paranormal stories.
Of course, there is never any proof of anything then or now.
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Old 07-02-2019, 10:34 AM
Status: "Trump 2020-make liberals cry again" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
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According to People's New Testament Commentary:

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. The fifty-third chapter of Isaiah is especially exact in the outlines of our Lord's suffering. He quotes it in Luke 22:37 . 4. That he was buried and rose again the third day, according to the scriptures. Paul himself quotes Ps. 16:10 as predicting the resurrection.
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Old 07-02-2019, 10:48 AM
 
11,234 posts, read 11,256,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
The problem* is that many Jews of that time believed OT passages often had more than one meaning, one in clear text, the other hidden. So Paul is not deceiving anyone, he may have actually believed Jesus (who he said is an angel) was raised on the third day.

The important point is that Paul says this is revealed in scripture, so it was not based on an actual event**. But Paul never says this was a historical event, so we do not know where Paul thought Jesus was raised. All we know is Paul know of a Jesus from OT scripture*** or through revelation.

* actually A problem, there is some historians who believe this passage is an interpolation (while a few argue it is an interpolation in an interpolation).

** unless it was a prediction of an actual event, but that may be reading the fictional gospels stories based on this passage back into this passage.

*** most of the time, Paul does quote 1 passage that is not a quote of the OT.

I get that Jews of Hosea's time and Jesus' time and especially afterwards were finding 2nd, 3rd and even 4th meanings behind scriptural passages. It's part and parcel of anything as vacuous as religious doctrine. Which is why there are as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians.


But Paul is making a specific declaration in this "creed" as apologists have labeled it: that Jesus resurrection was predicted in the Old testament as far back as Hosea which dates to the reign of Jeroboam II (c. 786–746 bc). That's nearly 800 years before Jesus. I seriously doubt the Jews even had a concept of a Messiah that early a date, since they hadn't even been conquered by the Assyrians yet, let alone the Babylonians. People forget that the whole reason this warrior messiah figure arose in Old Testament scriptures was because the Jews were constantly being carried off by different races into captivity, if not slavery and they were sick and tired of it. They were supposed to be yahweh's "chosen people" and they were constantly getting their butts kicked by pagan nations. Where was yahweh, they wondered? Thus the idea of a messiah arose who would free them from the yoke of oppression and set them up as masters of the entire world.

Does the 3rd day figure prominently in the Old Testament? oh, it certainly does.

1) On the third day — "The earth brought forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants of every kind, and trees of every kind bearing fruit." (Genesis 1:12)
2) On the third day — "Abraham looked up and saw the place [Mount Moriah] from afar." There he intends to offer his son Isaac as a burnt offering to God. Yet he assures his companions, "We will worship and return." (Genesis 22:4-5)
3) On the third day — Pharaoh releases his chief cupbearer from death-row. (Genesis 40:20-21)
4) On the third day — Joseph releases his brothers from prison in Egypt. (Genesis 42:17-18)
5) On the third day — The Israelites request Pharaoh's permission to make a three-day journey to offer sacrifice in the desert to God. (Exodus 3:18)
6) On the third day — Plague Nine, the Plague of Darkness, in Egypt ends, "though the Israelites enjoyed light in their dwellings." (Exodus 10:22)
7) On the third day — God descends to Mount Sinai in fire with the sound of a shofar. He then reveals The Ten Words, Israel's constitution of new life as a nation after their resurrection from the death of slavery in Egypt. (Exodus 19:16-19)
8) On the third day — Israelites are to purify themselves with water after being in contact with the dead. (Numbers 19:12)
9) On the third day — After coming to the river and preparing themselves, the Israelites cross the Jordan "to enter and possess the land that the LORD [their] God is giving to [them] as a possession." (Joshua 1:11; 3:2)
10) On the third day — Joshua's spies emerge from hiding from the Jerichoites, then return to their commander. (Joshua 2:16, 22)
11) On the third day — After asking God for release, King Hezekiah is healed of his fatal disease and offers thanks in the temple. (2 Kings 20:5)
12) On the third day — Jonah is expelled from the fish belly. (Jonah 1:17/2:1 Heb) (Matt 12:40; cf. Matt 16:21; 17:23)
13) On the third day — After fasting, Esther puts on royal apparel and enters the palace of the Persian king in order to thwart a death-plot against her people, the Jews. (Esther 4:16; 5:1)

Note also similar events in the third year:

14) In the third year [day] — A famine during David's reign ends. (2 Samuel 21:1). [Years often parallel days; 40 years = 40 days in wilderness.]

15) In the third year [day] — A famine called for by Elijah the prophet ends. (1 Kings 18:1)

http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hebrew/3rdday.html


The question is, how does ANY of this relate to Jesus dying on day one and then rising on day three?

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Old 07-02-2019, 10:51 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,037 posts, read 936,220 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
According to People's New Testament Commentary:

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. The fifty-third chapter of Isaiah is especially exact in the outlines of our Lord's suffering. He quotes it in Luke 22:37 . 4. That he was buried and rose again the third day, according to the scriptures.
Probably the OT passage that part of the story was invented from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Paul himself quotes Ps. 16:10 as predicting the resurrection.
You are reading the later gospels back into the earlier letters of Paul.
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Old 07-02-2019, 10:56 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,037 posts, read 936,220 times
Reputation: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I get that Jews of Hosea's time and Jesus' time and especially afterwards were finding 2nd, 3rd and even 4th meanings behind scriptural passages. It's part and parcel of anything as vacuous as religious doctrine. Which is why there are as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians.
Except you said Paul deceived us. My point was if he believed this, was he deceiving anyone?
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Old 07-02-2019, 11:58 AM
 
11,234 posts, read 11,256,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
I get that Jews of Hosea's time and Jesus' time and especially afterwards were finding 2nd, 3rd and even 4th meanings behind scriptural passages. It's part and parcel of anything as vacuous as religious doctrine. Which is why there are as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Except you said Paul deceived us. My point was if he believed this, was he deceiving anyone?

Point taken. Did Paul knowingly deceive or unknowingly deceive? Well, Whatever Paul was he was no dummy. He had to have read this passage and said to himself, "This doesn't really speak of a resurrection of Jesus. It's more along the lines of yahweh raising the Jews up on the 3rd day."


So then did Paul say to himself, "How can I convince people that this passage is a reference to Jesus when clearly the messiah isn't even mentioned?"

Or did he say to himself, "I don't care if Jesus isn't referenced at all in this passage. This is a clear reference to his resurrection. The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it!"

It boils down to how easily could Paul deceive himself into believing the entire Old Testament was about Jesus. More to the point, the question becomes "How effectively could a good apologist take any passage he wanted out of the Old Testament and with sleight of hand make it look convincingly like it was talking about the resurrection?"


Let's look at a random passage: "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." Psalm 91:1


Here's how I'd do it. Remember we're trying to convince gullible Christians this is a clear prophesy to the resurrection of Jesus:


"He" is Jesus. When hanging the cross Jesus was in "the shadow" of God's fury at sin. At that moment Jesus became a sin offering and died for mankind. So in order to dwell in the secret place of the Most High Jesus had to come alive again. This necessitated a resurrection from the dead so that Jesus could ascend to God's most secret place in heaven and "abide under the shadow of the Most High" and His love for Jesus for Jesus' selfless sacrifice. This proves that Jesus resurrected on the 3rd day. Why? Because on the 3rd day at Mt Sinai the Jews "resurrected" to a new covenant with God."

Did I convince you that Psalm 91:1 is a prophecy of Jesus' resurrection? If I didn't that only means I'm not a very clever apologist.

Paul is basically doing the same thing, but he's doing it with a heckuva lot more style and wit.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-02-2019 at 12:42 PM..
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