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Old 07-04-2019, 07:04 AM
 
13,450 posts, read 4,976,974 times
Reputation: 1363

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
What people seem to forget is that God is not limited to man's science. Often His interventions are in contrast with science.
I have seen and experienced many a healing contrary to science and medicine a result of God's intervention.
I have prayed or rain an received it and prayed the rain stopped and it stopped .Not eventually but at the moment I asked. God gives preference to those that love and obey Him.
God is not manipulated .
So though there are some factors of science man is limited to ,God is not bound to them.
lets check this out ...

medical miracles happen everyday in hospitals. thats true enough. people get better when the data suggest they shouldn't be. god picks and chooses? Well, if it is, it looks like he is not picking and choosing based on religion. in fact, we can't predict who is being saved pass the claim that some live while most die from certain things.

You prayed and it stopped at that moment. well, I have prayed to for it to stop and it didn't. so lets get your people and my people together and see if your team gets the rain to stop when you prey. The data sugget that just doesn't happen. so why teach that stuff?

 
Old 07-04-2019, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,437 posts, read 10,385,168 times
Reputation: 20299
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
What I believe is not indisputable fact. ...
Well, you got that part right.
 
Old 07-04-2019, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,437 posts, read 10,385,168 times
Reputation: 20299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
his is based on

youtube: "how small is it 05"

whats your claim based on? you being mistreated and not getting your way?

who the heck are we, in the middle, to believe more? I think you stuck in the classic argument of "what is a better car? GTO or a corvette?'

you can argue semantics, I get that, but whats your data to say that the system of life around us is not responsible for us being here?
Stop playing psychologist with a person you never met.
 
Old 07-04-2019, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,437 posts, read 10,385,168 times
Reputation: 20299
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
What people seem to forget is that God is not limited to man's science. Often His interventions are in contrast with science.
I have seen and experienced many a healing contrary to science and medicine a result of God's intervention.
I have prayed or rain an received it and prayed the rain stopped and it stopped .Not eventually but at the moment I asked. God gives preference to those that love and obey Him.
God is not manipulated .
So though there are some factors of science man is limited to ,God is not bound to them.
I got in quite an argument about just that topic once when I was on a driving trip through the Dakotas on the way west. And my religious relative was praying that it wouldn't rain at the same time that the region was in a severe, extended drought. Cattle was dying right and left, farmers were going out of business, and general water supplies were on shaky ground. But she was praying that it not rain so that we would have a good afternoon at Badlands National Park.

Thankfully, it did rain that afternoon and it was the first relief the poor farmers had gotten in weeks.

But who do you people think you are that you get to pray and ruin other people's lives?

It's such foolishness, and often selfishness.
 
Old 07-04-2019, 08:12 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,028 posts, read 932,188 times
Reputation: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball View Post
God created an orderly universe that is capable of being investigated and to a large degree understood. God blessed humans with investigative and analytical abilities that make them able to undertake this task. This "coincidence" is in itself a rather large clue for those with eyes to see and ears to here.
Obviously false to those who can see, hear and think. If a god gave us these investigative and analytical abilities, they would be innate, we would not have to invent them to get around our innate cognitive biases, nor would we have to learn them as children. Shall I buy you eye glasses so you can read that, or shall I say it very, very loudly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball View Post
The problem today is that science is essentially a religion with its own creed. One axiom is that we live in a naturalistic, materialistic universe in which there is no room for God or any supernatural forces. This is as much an "article of faith" as any religious claim.
Again false. The axiom that everything is natural is because we only see natural forces. We see no evidence for a god, and the natural evidence means we do not need a god just speaking the universe into existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball View Post
The role of science is to investigate and attempt to explain that which can be investigated and explained through scientific methodology. When science remains within its proper sphere, there is no disconnect between science and religion. When science claims to have answered the ultimate metaphysical questions, then it simply makes itself look ridiculous.
Of course there is a disconnect, science can not be compatible with every religion. And when religion claims to have answered the ultimate metaphysical questions, then it simply makes itself look ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball View Post
All of this is brilliantly explained in Where the Conflict Really Lies: Science, Religion and Naturalism by Alvin Plantinga.
Plantinga! GIGO.
 
Old 07-04-2019, 08:14 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,028 posts, read 932,188 times
Reputation: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball View Post
Scientism - in contrast to honest science - is predicated on an unassailable axiom that reality can be explained in purely naturalistic terms. Scientism hasn't proved God doesn't exist. Scientism isn't even predicated on a scientific conclusion that God doesn't exist. Scientism rules out the existence of God from the get-go.

An axiom that reality can be explained in purely naturalistic terms is not predicated on verifiable evidence. Indeed, it's flatly contradicted by quantum physics. See Bernardo Kastrup's The Idea of the World for an excellent, peer-reviewed discussion from many perspectives.

This is why scientism is dishonest. It presents this axiom, which is in fact an article of faith, as though it were a settled conclusion based on verifiable evidence. This is why scientism goes to absurd lengths to resist the findings of quantum physics and why it seeks to shout down the Intelligent Design movement. The findings of quantum physics expose naturalism as simply false. The ID movement confronts scientism on its own turf and its own terms, and scientism can't handle it. Like any fundamentalist religion, scientism does not want to debate its axioms.

There are sound - indeed, logically irrefutable - "proofs" for the existence of God. There is abundant evidence, including verifiable laboratory evidence, for the existence of phenomena that cannot be accommodated by naturalism. There are scientists and scientific papers of the highest caliber that point toward a designed reality. There are mountains of anecdotal and to some extent scientific evidence for the continuation of consciousness after bodily death. For many people, there are personal experiences that they believe can best be explained as the workings of a providential God. A belief in God can be entirely rational, as legions of scientists, philosophers and other scholars will attest.

A belief in naturalism likewise can be entirely rational. In either case, it is simply a matter of how informed the believer is and how he or she assesses the best evidence from all available subject areas.

The dishonesty of scientism is in pretending that its naturalistic paradigm is in some entirely different epistemological category from a belief in God. Fundamentalist scientists are no different in essence from religious fundamentalists. There is no disconnect whatsoever between honest science and a belief in God.

Try reading Alvin Plantinga's work that I cited above. He is widely recognized as the premier epistemologist of the twentieth century.
That was a lot of words to get scientism wrong. And please, only the desperate use the scientism ad hominem.
 
Old 07-04-2019, 08:17 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,028 posts, read 932,188 times
Reputation: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are Wrong, period! There is plenty of evidence but you do not consider it ENOUGH because you refer to call it any name but God. How you can dismiss as NOT GOD the very source of your existence and the existence of everything we know about and do not know about is beyond my ken. What extraordinary arrogance and hubris! What the H--- would a God have to do to impress you that it is a God relative to you?????? Pretending it is nothing or some ineffable something but NOT God is puerile and pedantic.
Pretending you are not begging the question is puerile and pedantic.
 
Old 07-04-2019, 08:22 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,028 posts, read 932,188 times
Reputation: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
well, thats wrong. its not zero. tran's told me to do it. and thats just one. there are millions more of them.

Yes, I agree with the intelligent ruler part. but some of us express that differently.

yes, its so obvious a child can see it.
Except you either have a reading comprehension problem or you just misrepresent, so we can not accept your claim at all without evidence.

So the question for you is where is this evidence?
 
Old 07-04-2019, 10:05 AM
 
40,034 posts, read 26,715,004 times
Reputation: 6047
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
You said: "But that there is a source of everything that exists is indisputable fact."

That is NOT an indisputable fact. There's really nothing more to be said about it. You believe there is a source for everything. Some other people do not. It's not testable. There's no way to prove there is a source for everything. Therefore it's no an "indisputable fact." It is, in fact, disputable, because it is disputed.
Pedantry. Does everything just exist? That is disturbingly similar to the God claim. Why do scientists have names for what doesn't exist? This is the science denialist thread, isn't it? Are you denying science?
 
Old 07-04-2019, 10:09 AM
 
40,034 posts, read 26,715,004 times
Reputation: 6047
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are Wrong, period! There is plenty of evidence but you do not consider it ENOUGH because you refer to call it any name but God. How you can dismiss as NOT GOD the very source of your existence and the existence of everything we know about and do not know about is beyond my ken. What extraordinary arrogance and hubris! What the H--- would a God have to do to impress you that it is a God relative to you?????? Pretending it is nothing or some ineffable something but NOT God is puerile and pedantic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Pretending you are not begging the question is puerile and pedantic.
Dodging the question is also.
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