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Old 07-08-2019, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,998 posts, read 8,421,179 times
Reputation: 15608

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Perhaps a big majority of us?

It was our own ideology, remember?

We decided to create and live in a society where we agreed to create relaxed laws with lenient punishments for such animals?

How about, instead of wasting our time and energies on criticising the organization, we work together and raise our voices through legal channels to push for laws which dictate that, rapists and pedophiles, after getting convicted in a court of law based on DNA and/or other undeniable evidence should face capital punishment immediately after the fair trial ends?

I think that will be more concrete of an action rather than just hot air from the mouth.
So we need a punishment harsher than a long prison sentence with fellow inmates who are known to look harshly upon child molesters, followed by a lifelong requirement to be publicly registered as a sex offender, which essentially renders a person unemployable and in many localities, with no housing options other than living under a bridge? Your stance is that something harsher than that will help?

As for criticizing the organization, this is the religion forum, not the crime forum, so it is reasonable to discuss the impacts of religion on the crime.

Also, if the structure of the organization creates a haven or similar safe space for people to commit such crimes, isn't is preferable to remove the safety and prevent the crime, rather than wait for the crime to occur then punish harshly? I think most victims, if given the choice, would support not being a victim over seeing a harsh punishment enforced.

Finally, a large number of sex crimes remain unreported for many reasons. Look at the RCC for evidence, where hundreds and thousands of crimes are being reported decades after the fact. Maybe we should look for ways to make it safer for victims to report crimes, rather than shaming them for being victims, and allowing a social structure like a church to work on supporting the criminal and implicitly, or in some cases explicitly, blaming the victim.
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Old 07-08-2019, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,998 posts, read 8,421,179 times
Reputation: 15608
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
These evil men will NOT perish from our society if we agree to abolish this entire organization.

These monsters, to a great extent, will remain among us, with a different mask on their faces.
Emphasis added.

I agree with you. But removing the mask we know about can reduce the extent of the crimes, and I think that the victims saved by reducing will live better lives for it. We need to reduce the cover these people have, which will reduce, but sadly not eliminate, the abuse.


Quote:
IMO, if we need to save and better protect our children and vulnerable females from these monsters then together being vigilant and alert parents, we must introduce and enforce VERY, VERY STRICT laws to punish these convicts through legal justice system.
I agree with vigilance. I simply do not agree that our punishments are too weak and therefore foster the behavior.
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Old 07-08-2019, 07:49 AM
 
4,424 posts, read 1,648,512 times
Reputation: 1543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
ah, a risk vs befit analysis. thats sounds great.

"religion" verses "some parts of religion"?
all religions vs sects of individual religions?
all god beliefs vs over organized religion?

some people do bad things so all people are evil?
isn't that why that dude flew down to save us?
IMO, no one flew down to save anyone.

Everyone is on their own. Everyone is responsible for their own choices made on free will.
Do good, get good. Do bad, get ready for consequences. Simple and straight.
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Old 07-08-2019, 07:55 AM
 
4,424 posts, read 1,648,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post

I agree with vigilance. I simply do not agree that our punishments are too weak and therefore foster the behavior.
Yep. Thatís what it is.
I dont like a convicted pedophile to exist to begin with, talk about him being placed in my neighborhood.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:01 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,004,197 times
Reputation: 1366
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
IMO, no one flew down to save anyone.

Everyone is on their own. Everyone is responsible for their own choices made on free will.
Do good, get good. Do bad, get ready for consequences. Simple and straight.
yeah, i agree.

the main point is the risk vs befitting. and how do we determine it?

can we state the notion of this thread independent of a statement of belief about religion/god?

why yes I can, i am an atheist ....

Some people in the secular sect feel it ok to put these monsters next to regular people. This ideology, in the secular arena, systematically puts people in danger. They feel that when there are more of them it makes them more right.

lmao ... not one word about belief in god.

yeah, i get the religion hypocrite stuff. but one look at non religious and I see the same exact thing.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:21 AM
 
5,958 posts, read 2,293,894 times
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Isn't the wrongness of this particular story is not that the abuser of his daughter exists and did harm to her, but that he was given a pass from the church members because he was a good Christian?

To me there is no difference between a very good person doing a disgusting deed or a generally rotten person doing the same deed.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:29 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,004,197 times
Reputation: 1366
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
Isn't the wrongness of this particular story is not that the abuser of his daughter exists and did harm to her, but that he was given a pass from the church members because he was a good Christian?

To me there is no difference between a very good person doing a disgusting deed or a generally rotten person doing the same deed.
yes, the wrongness of the story is the notion of 'its ok to protect your own at all cost".

I totally agree.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:33 AM
 
Location: minnesota
6,348 posts, read 2,126,123 times
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Interacting with people a generation up from me has brought interesting things to light. In my generation and younger there are people who tolerate sexual assault and child abuse but aren't quite as vocal as people I have run into in their 80s. There is a guy on the Christianity forum who mentioned that everyone has a pedo uncle in their family and what's the big deal. On the politics and controversy form there were people defending a man's right to do what he wants with a woman and she better not cause a fuss. I've been told the woman should be flattered if a man becomes so enchanted with her that he can't keep his hands off her. I was even called naive if I ever thought it should change. My own religious mom and her friend slandered the friends daughter saying she seduced her 40something uncle at the 14. I think our society at some point in the past groomed people to accept this behavior. They don't like change.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:50 AM
 
39,168 posts, read 10,865,034 times
Reputation: 5092
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
All those who support these monsters in the churches, are part of the gang and should be brought under the weight of law.

However, not the ENTIRE Christian organization is evil. There are many good and kind hearted men and women in this organization. Many volunteers, many charity donars, many who care for others and many who are well wishers of others.
That is irrelevant. While the individuals who are bad apples do not make the whole barrel a bad barrel, the covering up and excusing of bad apples is a problem with the barrel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Perhaps a big majority of us?

It was our own ideology, remember?

We decided to create and live in a society where we agreed to create relaxed laws with lenient punishments for such animals?

How about, instead of wasting our time and energies on criticising the organization, we work together and raise our voices through legal channels to push for laws which dictate that, rapists and pedophiles, after getting convicted in a court of law based on DNA and/or other undeniable evidence should face capital punishment immediately after the fair trial ends?

I think that will be more concrete of an action rather than just hot air from the mouth.
That's a pretty clumsy attempt at misdirection . Very much the '"Why are you giving me a ticket instead of catching murderers?", type of misdirection. You may favour cutting off the hands or stoning or other punishments prescribed by the religion you seem to favor, but that is a discussion quite distinct from criticising religious organisations that cover up or try to excuse offenders in their ranks.

Misdirection, old mate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
These evil men will NOT perish from our society if we agree to abolish this entire organization.

These monsters, to a great extent, will remain among us, with a different mask on their faces.

IMO, if we need to save and better protect our children and vulnerable females from these monsters then together being vigilant and alert parents, we must introduce and enforce VERY, VERY STRICT laws to punish these convicts through legal justice system.
That's another piece of misdirection. Very much the 'If we get rid of religion, we will still find things to fight about'. If religion is not given protective privilege for those under its' roof, it will be easier to take action against wrongdoers gust as easily as in other areas of society. That removing church sanctuary (which is what it really is) isn't going to make humanity plaster saints is irrelevant.

Misdirection, again.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-08-2019 at 08:59 AM..
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:57 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,004,197 times
Reputation: 1366
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
Interacting with people a generation up from me has brought interesting things to light. In my generation and younger there are people who tolerate sexual assault and child abuse but aren't quite as vocal as people I have run into in their 80s. There is a guy on the Christianity forum who mentioned that everyone has a pedo uncle in their family and what's the big deal. On the politics and controversy form there were people defending a man's right to do what he wants with a woman and she better not cause a fuss. I've been told the woman should be flattered if a man becomes so enchanted with her that he can't keep his hands off her. I was even called naive if I ever thought it should change. My own religious mom and her friend slandered the friends daughter saying she seduced her 40something uncle at the 14. I think our society at some point in the past groomed people to accept this behavior. They don't like change.
yeah, your right ...

we had a "petter" in our school. He walked up to me and I looked him in the face and said "not me". I am small guy, but he knew. I was safe for the next four years. I feel horrible now that the adults and myself let that go. for the guys that can't fight for themselves.

I am glad things are changing.
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