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Old 07-12-2019, 11:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
The term "gentiles" is not of Jewish origin. As a word of Latin origin, it came about among non-Jews as a way to distinguish themselves from Jews (compare with "genteel" and "gentle").
So interesting! And also in the same vein of better fundamental understanding I think. Almost seems you already knew this while I never gave the origin of this word any prior thought. Curious, I checked at least one other source that seems to disagree with your version, at least to some extent.

Gentile (from Latin gentilis (“of or belonging to the same people or nation”), from gēns (“clan; tribe; people, family”) + adjective suffix -īlis (“-ile”) is an ethnonym that commonly means non-Jew according to Judaism. Other groups that claim Israelite heritage sometimes use the term to describe outsiders.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile

Depending on what "according to Judaism" should have us believe anyway...
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
Of course we can compare them to antisemitism.

All are ideologies based on hatred of specific religious groups.
All have led to the destruction of places of worship, the murder of innocent people, and discrimination.
I think they compare quite well.

As far as frequency, antisemitism is much more common. It seems to be far more popular and more socially acceptable the the rest (with the possible exception of Islamophobia which has been increasingly popular over the last decade or so).
That all sports involve scoring, players and fans does not mean they are all similar in all important respects, but it's altogether true these "ideologies based on hatred" have lead to all manner of nasty problems for all concerned. Worth the further consideration I would say...

What intrigues me more than anything is what REALLY causes people to "lash out" toward others beyond the simple difference in what we believe about God. For example, I think we can all agree millions and millions of people believe in all manner of things that we don't. This in itself is not why people lash out against others I don't think. I certainly don't feel any animosity toward people who simply believe differently than I do. I met someone who is actually -- honestly -- a flat Earther the other day. Weird if you ask me, but why should I care that he think differently?

Doesn't affect or bother me any what he THINKS...

Obviously, there is more to all the "lashing out" than simple difference of belief. No doubt what is considered "more socially acceptable" as a rule has more to do with the tensions that seem to arise over these differences, involving more in the way of actions than what someone simply believes in their head.
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
"Goy" means "nation". Colloquially, it means a non-Jew. It is neutral; the non-Jew who spray-painted a swastika in the synagogue and the non-Jew who rescued 1000 Jewish kids from Europe during the Shoah are both equally "goyim".

Sure, it can be used pejoratively, just as American or Christian can be used pejoratively in the right (or wrong?) context.
Question I'm inclined to ask is why the focus on these distinctions and/or the degree to which they matter?

How different is this from someone who needs to know whether someone is black before renting them an apartment? Are these religious distinctions any more or less important than race? When do we consider ourselves all the same "in the eyes of God" -- just people in any case -- and when do we tend to think and DO otherwise?

Why and to what end?
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Old 07-12-2019, 12:58 PM
 
Location: NJ
1,390 posts, read 496,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
True.

Though it seems there is reluctance to view these dynamics in terms of being cliquish, but I have a hard time understanding why given the rather straight-forward common understanding of what the word means. Again as follows:

cliquish

adjective
(of a group or place) tending to form or hold exclusive groups and so not welcoming to outsiders.
But that doesn't describe the situation. Jews welcome outsiders. Even without conversion, Jews often connect with and do business with outsiders (meaning 'non-Jews') but they do so without losing their identity as Jews. The resentment comes because socially, the involvement is generally on the Jews' terms. I have had plenty of non-Jews to my house for meals or at my events but I don't necessarily go to theirs.
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Old 07-12-2019, 01:06 PM
 
Location: NJ
1,390 posts, read 496,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
So interesting! And also in the same vein of better fundamental understanding I think. Almost seems you already knew this while I never gave the origin of this word any prior thought. Curious, I checked at least one other source that seems to disagree with your version, at least to some extent.

Gentile (from Latin gentilis (“of or belonging to the same people or nation”), from gēns (“clan; tribe; people, family”) + adjective suffix -īlis (“-ile”) is an ethnonym that commonly means non-Jew according to Judaism. Other groups that claim Israelite heritage sometimes use the term to describe outsiders.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile

Depending on what "according to Judaism" should have us believe anyway...
You will have a very hard time finding any historical texts on Judaism in English (or Latin) which show a history of the use of the word Gentile. It was adopted by Jews in English writings much later, using the language that was already pervasive. Here is some interesting information

John's Dictionary of Difficult Words (Vancouver, Richmond and Burnaby English Tutor): WORD HISTORY: Jaunty
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Old 07-12-2019, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,818 posts, read 4,973,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
True.

Though it seems there is reluctance to view these dynamics in terms of being cliquish, but I have a hard time understanding why given the rather straight-forward common understanding of what the word means. Again as follows:

cliquish

adjective
(of a group or place) tending to form or hold exclusive groups and so not welcoming to outsiders.

Most people are turned off by this sort of thing, regardless the clique (unless of course you are in the clique).

That anyone "lash out" is also something most people don't approve of as a rule.

So where does this leave us?

I'd like to suggest people do a better job of understanding these dynamics at the most fundamental levels, regardless of ancient history. Or maybe as a result of what we can learn from that history...
Yeah, I am thinking that the bible aint for you lol, of course we all know you aren't a bible follower. There is an exclusive group, and there are things that are not to be shared to Gentiles.

If the Christian Gentile even had a clue, it would depress them to hear the report. That is like every single Christian speaking of their supposed,'' End of Days.''

They speak of Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and Sukkot every day, but they don't even know that they are speaking of Rosh Hashanah because they don't know what is appointed to happen in the day of the Lord.

Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur comes judging all Gentiles in the Sukkot season, and that is why it is called,'' The Day No Man Knows except the father.''

Of course every man knows the day, and those who kjow the day, they know whatnid appointed to happen......

That God chooses Judah and Jerusalem, here is a glimpse of the ELECT,


The difference between the world, and Jews being displayed on Rosh Hashanah going into Sukkot and Shemini Atzeret.

What happens to the nations is supposed to be hidden that Jews do not discuss it for obvious reasons, the day no man knows,'' The Hidden Day.''
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Old 07-12-2019, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,720 posts, read 1,387,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
That all sports involve scoring, players and fans does not mean they are all similar in all important respects, but it's altogether true these "ideologies based on hatred" have lead to all manner of nasty problems for all concerned. Worth the further consideration I would say...

What intrigues me more than anything is what REALLY causes people to "lash out" toward others beyond the simple difference in what we believe about God. For example, I think we can all agree millions and millions of people believe in all manner of things that we don't. This in itself is not why people lash out against others I don't think. I certainly don't feel any animosity toward people who simply believe differently than I do. I met someone who is actually -- honestly -- a flat Earther the other day. Weird if you ask me, but why should I care that he think differently?

Doesn't affect or bother me any what he THINKS...

Obviously, there is more to all the "lashing out" than simple difference of belief. No doubt what is considered "more socially acceptable" as a rule has more to do with the tensions that seem to arise over these differences, involving more in the way of actions than what someone simply believes in their head.
It certainly does sound like you have to consider there. Perhaps one day you'll be able to get to the bottom of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Question I'm inclined to ask is why the focus on these distinctions and/or the degree to which they matter?

How different is this from someone who needs to know whether someone is black before renting them an apartment? Are these religious distinctions any more or less important than race? When do we consider ourselves all the same "in the eyes of God" -- just people in any case -- and when do we tend to think and DO otherwise?

Why and to what end?
I'm sorry, but I was answering a question, not "focusing" on any distinctions.





Shabbat shalom.
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Old Yesterday, 08:43 AM
 
12,724 posts, read 3,228,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
But that doesn't describe the situation. Jews welcome outsiders. Even without conversion, Jews often connect with and do business with outsiders (meaning 'non-Jews') but they do so without losing their identity as Jews. The resentment comes because socially, the involvement is generally on the Jews' terms. I have had plenty of non-Jews to my house for meals or at my events but I don't necessarily go to theirs.
I think we are getting closer to the heart of the matter, and at the same time I came to something of an epiphany yesterday when I signed off of this forum. Giving it a bit more thought between then and now as well...

Of course, what it is to be "welcoming" involves more than whether we might do business with others or invite them over to the house on occasion. In particular with respect to this topic/thread, I believe the issue revolves around how one views their identity and then how they project that identity with others.

Is it "welcoming" to have people over to your home but not go over to theirs? Is it "welcoming" to socialize only on one's own terms rather than simply as people with common interests? Why the focus on what is not common? Not sure the best word to use here is "welcoming" in the first place. As mentioned before, the issue is more about what tends to separate people rather than bring them together. All people, not just select people...

I'm thinking maybe my epiphany is deserving of a new thread all it's own. Not because it's necessarily more important than anything else. It's just another interesting observation, much like my Cement Theory, that has to do with just how little these observations and discussions matter. People justify their own behavior in whatever way suits, and constructive objective discussion -- including legitimate criticism -- is rarely to be had with adults who care far more about their "identity" regardless of others.

Not sure that's the best way to put it, but maybe I'll do better with the start of a new thread...
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Old Yesterday, 09:06 AM
 
12,724 posts, read 3,228,585 times
Reputation: 1579
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
You will have a very hard time finding any historical texts on Judaism in English (or Latin) which show a history of the use of the word Gentile. It was adopted by Jews in English writings much later, using the language that was already pervasive. Here is some interesting information

John's Dictionary of Difficult Words (Vancouver, Richmond and Burnaby English Tutor): WORD HISTORY: Jaunty
Thanks. All very interesting, but I must admit my focus is on the very frequent and common use of the word in today's world. By whom and why, properly applied or not. Quite unique in many ways. Like so many of these dynamics born of ancient times, what matters most today (to most people today anyway) is rarely directly tied to what we may be able to know about ancient times. Mysterious and long gone by...
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Old Yesterday, 09:09 AM
 
12,724 posts, read 3,228,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Yeah, I am thinking that the bible aint for you lol, of course we all know you aren't a bible follower. There is an exclusive group, and there are things that are not to be shared to Gentiles.

If the Christian Gentile even had a clue, it would depress them to hear the report. That is like every single Christian speaking of their supposed,'' End of Days.''

They speak of Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and Sukkot every day, but they don't even know that they are speaking of Rosh Hashanah because they don't know what is appointed to happen in the day of the Lord.

Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur comes judging all Gentiles in the Sukkot season, and that is why it is called,'' The Day No Man Knows except the father.''

Of course every man knows the day, and those who kjow the day, they know whatnid appointed to happen......

That God chooses Judah and Jerusalem, here is a glimpse of the ELECT,


The difference between the world, and Jews being displayed on Rosh Hashanah going into Sukkot and Shemini Atzeret.

What happens to the nations is supposed to be hidden that Jews do not discuss it for obvious reasons, the day no man knows,'' The Hidden Day.''
Of course I can't but help express my own thinking, but I view this topic and topics like this more in light of all people, not just you or me. In other words what matters more than whether the Bible is for me is whether it should be for anyone and/or why it is for many millions of people and "ain't" for many millions of other people.

Ah, but as I suggest in the other thread I just started, we adults are simply beyond mature objective reason about such things...
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