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To be fair, low church Evangelical Protestants and born again Christians also refer to themselves as "the only real or true Christians", and "the Lord's sheep"- in a manner of exclusivity not seen in Catholicism.
And how many Catholics really believe the "one true church" statement?
Most just regard it as an ancient liturgical statement.
To be fair...
I wonder if half the real problems that religion tends to present in general is this somewhat self-centered and pretentious sense of identity and exclusivity that sets them "apart" from the rest. Fostering little more than divisiveness. How different is that sort of thinking really from white supremacist thinking? Very little if you ask me, both in terms of rationale, civility and/or acceptability.
I've been pondering this question for awhile now, and I've yet to arrive at an answer other than "no." Wondering can that be true and if so, why?
Mormons were persecuted for example, but is there a term that describes people who harbor negative feelings about Mormons? Or Muslims? Not sure Islamophobia is the same or as unique. Lots of similar phobias, but antiSemitism is quite unique by comparison. AntiBuddhists? AntiChristians? AntiTibetans? Of course there is "racism" too, but is there any other term similar to antiSemitism related to any other religion or group?
Note: I am not an antiSemite by any means, and I'm not inviting any comments or sentiments along those lines. I am simply curious about how such a unique term came to be or whether there are other terms that similarly describe people who have general negative feeling about other people.
What I can think of is that the persecution of the Jews is recurring, over a period spanning millenia, whereas other persecutions come and go. Other minority groups such as African-Americans and Muslims are demonized as well. However, in the case of the Jews, they are successful at joining societies where they need or want to and yet, to quote rosends, "is proud of its unique identity and practices."The Jewish people have a strong work, education and family ethic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
(link to post) Jews have been hated since before they were called Jews. Check in the first couple of chapters of Exodus. A group that is distinct, that refuses to assimilate and lose itself and is proud of its unique identity and practices. Add in some success in a variety of areas, or the ability to live where others have died, and the rejection of all the johnny come lately belief systems, and then mix in some land arguments, and you have loads of reasons to hate. As if hate needs a reason.
The world has had a tortured relationship with the Jewish people and faith since the days of the Pharaohs of Egypt. See David Nirenberg’s excellent book, Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition, reviewed here in Tablet Magazine and here in the New Republic, about this relationship. He explains that much of the hatred was directed at theoretical Jews by people who had never met a real one. The Pharaohnic hatred of the Jews led them to create a parallel myth to the Exodus story, to the effect that they gave the Hebrews the boot, not the other way around.
We instead blame ourselves for supporting our interests in the Middle East, including the maintenance of bases, supporting Israel, and supporting regime change in Iraq. The firestorm of protest against moving the U.S. embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem was in the mass media, not in the Middle East. ne of the reasons is that we are embarrassed that Israel unified Jerusalem by conquest. It is “unacceptable” to seize land in battle, even when the countries owning that land started a war by aggression. Yet we somehow do not find Russia’s seizing the Crimea by a bogus referendum unacceptable.
In other words, the "double standard" is a modern illustration of the same phenomena.
What I can think of is that the persecution of the Jews is recurring, over a period spanning millenia, whereas other persecutions come and go. Other minority groups such as African-Americans and Muslims are demonized as well. However, in the case of the Jews, they are successful at joining societies where they need or want to and yet, to quote rosends, "is proud of its unique identity and practices."The Jewish people have a strong work, education and family ethic. The world has had a tortured relationship with the Jewish people and faith since the days of the Pharaohs of Egypt. See David Nirenberg’s excellent book, Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition, reviewed here in Tablet Magazine and here in the New Republic, about this relationship. He explains that much of the hatred was directed at theoretical Jews by people who had never met a real one. The Pharaohnic hatred of the Jews led them to create a parallel myth to the Exodus story, to the effect that they gave the Hebrews the boot, not the other way around.
In other words, the "double standard" is a modern illustration of the same phenomena.
I appreciate your thoughts and willingness to share them. No doubt this is a complicated issue...
Though I understand there have been many other cases of people being persecuted, long and short lived, I think the longevity of this persecution of Jews is all the more reason to seriously consider the sources of conflict, objectively. As compared to why the Mormons were persecuted, for example. What are the similarities and/or differences besides the duration of persecution?
I am curious to ask as well whether this persecution is still going on today. Though we all know antiSemitism still exists today, just like racism, is this what we are now calling "persecution" still today? With all due respect to ancient history that similarly no longer really applies I don't think. Time to think in terms of today's reality or our chances of moving on for the better are greatly diminished if you ask me.
I'm not sure this will help the cause here any, but I just posted this in another thread that helps explain where I'm coming from generally speaking. I would be curious anyone's opinion, most certainly including rosends'...
I almost forgot this effort of mine of many years ago, but I was suddenly reminded of my own effort along these lines this morning. To have an "off the shelf" version of my ultimate conclusion as of the present. An effort that over time developed into these "Nine Truths."
NINE TRUTHS
ONE: There are two essential realities for all human beings. One reality is as they perceive it to be -- their personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the Universe -- universal truth.
TWO: Human beings cannot know all that truly exists. The Universe and all it contains is full of mystery that will forever be marveled and pursued by Man as long as he survives.
THREE: The first "reality" for human beings manifests itself in all the great many beliefs and faiths throughout the World, from Christianity to Islam, from Mormonism to Zionism to Hinduism, and all the many faiths and religions in between. Many books also stem from these beliefs; the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad-Gita, Speaking of Faith, The Celestine Prophecy and so on. Beliefs in spiritual men such as Jesus, Mohammad, Joseph Smith and Jim Jones. The list is long and varied.
FOUR: The second reality, all that truly exists, known or unknown, is disclosed to Man most accurately and peacefully by way of well documented history (rather than religious books) and empirical science (rather than theology). All that we can accept as reality, truth, with the most certainty and most reasonably accept as true for ALL concerned.
FIVE: Faith is spawned from the human inclination to speculate or suppose beyond reality and theory as determined and defined by science. Such notions are often described as "spirituality" or a belief in an "energy" or an "influence," a "power" or "force," a God or Gods. These notions that go beyond common human awareness are typically based or recognized more by emotion rather than facts, feelings rather than logic. They typically call for faith rather than proof, all stemming from personal experience rather than common observance or scientific verification.
SIX: Man's ability to theorize is a faculty that allows Man to advance toward greater awareness and understanding of universal truth. The theoretical often guides Man to great scientific discovery. However, when conjecture rather than sound reason and logic leads to faith and the conversion of minds toward the likes of religion rather than the laws and limits of empirical science, great harm can and does come to Man instead. This is because the great majority of people cannot accept the confines of science. Instead conjecture is strongly promoted as truth ultimately to the point of creating profound divisions between people resulting in great conflict, violence and war, still raging since the dark ages; The Crusades, Jews v Muslims, Protestants v Catholics, Shiites v Sunnis...
SEVEN: The alternative skeptical challenge and test of faith to limit such conjecture is to foster an adherence to reality as currently defined or understood by science, the most universally accepted effort to arrive at truth with no agenda other than greater knowledge and understanding of universal truth. This path or quest of scientific discovery offers the way to peace instead of the sure madness that arises from the conflict of differing faiths.
If only Man would humbly, patiently and universally agree to allow. This is not to say that Man will not continue to bring violence upon himself for all number of other reasons, but intolerance, violence and war resulting from conflicting faith would be no more (and that's a whole lot of violence and war). Of course, Man's thoughts and beliefs cannot be controlled, but as Man learns to more universally accept both the great promise and reasonable limits of what science can teach, the source of conflict between Man is diminished, the path toward progress cleared, and the prospect for peace improved.
EIGHT: Empirical science alternatively guides Man toward truth based on facts that all people around the World can most easily accept as true, clearly distinguishing reality from theory in a manner all should peacefully embrace, thus eliminating the call or need for "faith" in any alternatives that ultimately divide us. Science fosters the peace of a universal patience and acceptance of our common condition and experience as humans.
NINE: Truth is therefore best realized and peace most successfully fostered as more people patiently accept and embrace reality as revealed, defined and/or revised by science. The movement toward this patience and acceptance, very slowly growing from one century to the next, is the maturing of Man, his best chance for lasting peace and true understanding of all that exists in the Universe, proven or yet to be proven.
I am curious to ask as well whether this persecution is still going on today. Though we all know antiSemitism still exists today, just like racism, is this what we are now calling "persecution" still today? With all due respect to ancient history that similarly no longer really applies I don't think. Time to think in terms of today's reality or our chances of moving on for the better are greatly diminished if you ask me.
My general view about history is "past is prologue" or "the more things change the more they stay the same" or "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."
This is a repeating pattern:
With Russia. I am reading Stalin: The Career Of A Fanatic by Essad Bey. The book is an utterly fascinating view of Stalin from his early period, before news of his cruelty circulated in the West. The lid blew off after the liberation from the czars with Kerensky and the October Revolution and Lenin/Stalin followed. The same thing happened after Gorbachev, Yeltsin and glasnost, and Putin followed;
With China, a brief liberal period under Sun Yat Sen was followed by replicas of the old Han emperors, with Chang Kai Shek and the Kuomintang (sp) and Mao and Communism following thereafter;
In Africa, with most countries leadership following the model of tribal potentates with more modern labels;
With Latin America more or less soft authoritarian governments not too dissimilar from Spanish and Brazilian colonialism, with many adopting nominally democratic forms. Venezuela and Cuba are more strictly totalitarian and for whatever reason Costa Rica and Chile are more democratic;
With continental Europe, with coalition governments and a paternal state closely following more or less benevolent but absolute monarchies pre-WW I; and on a more positive note
The U.S., Canada, Australia and New Zealand, a continuation of parliamentary, participatory democracy patterned on the post-Glorious Revolution England, even in the U.S., which ostensibly was created in rebellion.
I give these examples to demonstrate that anti-Judaism may just be baked in a lot of cakes.
Why Does the West Have to Acquiesce in Third World Outrages?
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In other words, the "double standard" is a modern illustration of the same phenomena.
You hear or read about "anti-Catholic sentiment" or "anti-papists" more than you encounter the term antiSemitism or antiSemites?!?
I'm amazed by this. Where do you live I wonder. What papers do you read? What news and entertainment do you follow?
Please do explain how this is so!
It is that way all over America, Catholics are hated by most religions that are not Catholic, most all Christian denominations hate Catholics. I was brought up in Catholic hate, spent years speaking against them, and now I take up for them, I did a complete opposite.
Gentiles represent flesh, it is a part of a person who desires flesh and what is not good to do, they are all dead, as dead men we are born.
The first born are always symbolised as flesh. From Cain to Ephraim, they have always represented an evil side of a person.
We saw Jacob putting on the skins of his brother,'' an animal skin.''
Jacob took that skin, and he wore it, and this is a clear picture of what we are, one brother inside another. Cain has killed the spiritual man within, and this is something that will always be, the blood of the righteous Abel, it is on the hands of everyone born. People will always silence the spiritual hidden man and they will live in desire of the outer man.
Galatians and Romans, and the parrables all teach this same thing.
Galatians teaches us that we are Ishmael AND Issac, that we are Esau, AND Jacob.
The reason Elijah wore the skins of an animal was because he was claiming to be the inner hidden man, that same hidden man Paul writes about in Corinthians.
Jesus had brought a covenant ONLY to Ephraim and Judah, but when Jesus came, God has already seeded the ten tribes of Israel into all nations that one day God would have a great harvest of Gentiles, that those lost Gentiles would come converting to Judaism to become one with Jews.
Jesus took Ephraim, and he took Judah and made them one man just as it had been shown all through history, just as Moses refused to be son of Pharaoh, and chose to become a servant instead of a king. You can live as a king, but you should do what Moses did, serve now, and rule later.
The New Testament also teaches this, that those Egyptians represented the flesh, and God has called all his sons to pick up and leave Egypt, just as it was said of Jesus,'' I have taken my son out of Egypt.''
Jesus ONLY brought a covenant for Ephrain and Judah, and he made one servant from the two.
He took a Jew and cut him in half, and then he took a Gentile and cut him in half, and then he took one side of the Gentile, and one side of the Jew, and he made one servant from the two.
Whether a Jew or a Gentile, the flesh represents Gentile, and this is no new concept, it began in the garden and has always been this way. The first born is the flesh, this body that will one day die, but there is also another son, and he will have his life also, the hidden secret man of the heart.
My general view about history is "past is prologue" or "the more things change the more they stay the same" or "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."
This is a repeating pattern:
With Russia. I am reading Stalin: The Career Of A Fanatic by Essad Bey. The book is an utterly fascinating view of Stalin from his early period, before news of his cruelty circulated in the West. The lid blew off after the liberation from the czars with Kerensky and the October Revolution and Lenin/Stalin followed. The same thing happened after Gorbachev, Yeltsin and glasnost, and Putin followed;
With China, a brief liberal period under Sun Yat Sen was followed by replicas of the old Han emperors, with Chang Kai Shek and the Kuomintang (sp) and Mao and Communism following thereafter;
In Africa, with most countries leadership following the model of tribal potentates with more modern labels;
With Latin America more or less soft authoritarian governments not too dissimilar from Spanish and Brazilian colonialism, with many adopting nominally democratic forms. Venezuela and Cuba are more strictly totalitarian and for whatever reason Costa Rica and Chile are more democratic;
With continental Europe, with coalition governments and a paternal state closely following more or less benevolent but absolute monarchies pre-WW I; and on a more positive note
The U.S., Canada, Australia and New Zealand, a continuation of parliamentary, participatory democracy patterned on the post-Glorious Revolution England, even in the U.S., which ostensibly was created in rebellion.
I give these examples to demonstrate that anti-Judaism may just be baked in a lot of cakes.
Thanks again, but again beginning with Russia...
My question is whether followers of Judaism are persecuted TODAY and/or to what extent? As compared to the past. Also again for example, in similar fashion we can read history about slavery in all parts of the world, but slavery doesn't exist today like once upon a time. Much like I don't see evidence Jews are persecuted today like once upon a time.
Of course in many sad ways it is easy to subscribe to your history repeating perspective, but in all fairness and honesty, again taking slavery and then segregation as just one other similar example, things have by no means stayed the same. Ideally that sort of progress will continue if we simply dispense with much of the historical baggage we no longer need to keep dragging along. No doubt there is much "baked in to lots of cakes," most certainly including our own.
Let's not forget. Sure, of course. We learn, but also of course let's continue to move forward...
Last edited by LearnMe; 07-24-2019 at 10:24 AM..
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