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Old 07-11-2019, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Now that I've read the article, I think the $72 million number might not be as significant as you think. That's not a huge amount of money to upgrade a facility of that size.

This appears to be going to be a draw to a $1 million+ Catholics. They may bring in more for charitable causes than that $72 million. Of course, it remains to be seen if that's what they do with donations, but they will very likely take in far more than the cost of the facility upgrade.
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:46 PM
 
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It may end up as a sensible investment I real estate.
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:54 PM
 
5,462 posts, read 2,301,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Now that I've read the article, I think the $72 million number might not be as significant as you think. That's not a huge amount of money to upgrade a facility of that size.

This appears to be going to be a draw to a $1 million+ Catholics. They may bring in more for charitable causes than that $72 million. Of course, it remains to be seen if that's what they do with donations, but they will very likely take in far more than the cost of the facility upgrade.

Yup. I'm not exactly a fan of how the Catholic leadership does things, but this is a shrug of the shoulders to me.

Heck, we're renovating our 130-year-old Episcopal church. Our four-story annex was built in 1910 and is falling apart. Plumbing, HVAC, everything. Just held together with bailing wire and duct tape until our congregation began increasing about 25 years ago. Price tag? $16.9 million dollars to be covered by pledges over a five-year period. 600 families managed to raise that in two months. At the same time, we run a homeless program, a GED class, a summer camp for disadvantage youths, literacy programs for kids, a program to mainstream former felons, a women's and children's shelter, and a nutrition clinic in Haiti. We're not exactly cutting into our outreach budget to do this. We're just digging deeper.

So, in truth, $72 million isn't a heckuva lot of cash to bring a place like that up to snuff, especially a place this mammoth. People are typically unaware how much any kind of construction costs, especially in a place such as Los Angeles.

To me, the question I always want to ask when someone starts critiquing a church spending money on its structures is this: How much did you give to charity last year? How many hours did you work with the homeless and the poor? How much volunteering did you do on your nights and weekends? More often than not, I kind of get a muttered response, or none at all.

Last edited by MinivanDriver; 07-11-2019 at 08:30 PM..
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,082 posts, read 54,565,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
Yup. I'm not exactly a fan of how the Catholic leadership does things, but this is a shrug of the shoulders to me.



Heck, we're renovating our Episcopal church. Our four-story annex was built in 1910 and is falling apart. Plumbing, HVAC, everything. Just held together with bailing wire and duct tape until our congregation began increasing about 25 years ago. Price tag? $16.9 million dollars in pledges over a five-year period. 600 families managed to raise that in two months.



So, in truth, $72 million isn't a heckuva lot of cash to bring a place like that up to snuff. At the same time, we run a homeless program, a GED class, a summer camp for disadvantage youths, a program to mainstream former felons, a women's and children's shelter, and a nutrition clinic in Haiti. So we're not exactly cutting into our outreach budget to do this. We're just digging even deeper.
Particularly love the GED class idea.
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Particularly love the GED class idea.

We graduate roughly 30-40 people a year. We provide the instruction, the materials, and the childcare. A few have gone on to community college and return periodically to say hello.
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Old 07-11-2019, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Southern California
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I guess everyone else misses what bothers me...supposedly this Jesus person was a poor man, wore sandels and didn't need mega bucks to teach the people his message.

Again, I'm not even convinced there ever was a Jesus.
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Old Yesterday, 04:18 AM
Status: "Living rent-free in Mr. Wade’s head" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,351 posts, read 8,898,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
I guess everyone else misses what bothers me...supposedly this Jesus person was a poor man, wore sandels and didn't need mega bucks to teach the people his message.

Again, I'm not even convinced there ever was a Jesus.
Are you familiar with this passage of scripture?

John 12

Mary Anoints Jesus

1 Jesus, therefore, six days before the Passover, came to Bethany where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2 So they made Him a supper there, and Martha was serving; but Lazarus was one of those reclining at the table with Him. 3 Mary then took a pound of very costly perfume of pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped His feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. 4 But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, who was intending to betray Him, said, 5 “Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?” 6 Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it. 7 Therefore Jesus said, “Let her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of My burial. 8 For you always have the poor with you, but you do not always have Me.”
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Old Yesterday, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,082 posts, read 54,565,498 times
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Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
I guess everyone else misses what bothers me...supposedly this Jesus person was a poor man, wore sandels and didn't need mega bucks to teach the people his message.
No, no one "missed" it, it's just been discussed so much already that it's a given. Jesus told his disciples to sell all they had, etc. Very few have followed that path. My Favorite Christian, Francis of Assisi, did. There's also a local pastor in my area who lived with the homeless in their tent city for a number of years and advocated for them.

But in reality, Christianity, particularly in the United States, is run like a business.

I love this quote that people have posted several times before:

“In the first century in Palestine, Christianity was a community of believers. Then Christianity moved to Greece and became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome and became an institution. Then it moved to Europe and became a culture. And then it moved to America and became a business.” Priscilla Shirer

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
Again, I'm not even convinced there ever was a Jesus.
Which, of course, is not a unique point of view. If you search, you can find a number of threads on the topic.
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Old Yesterday, 06:08 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 2,301,126 times
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Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
I guess everyone else misses what bothers me...supposedly this Jesus person was a poor man, wore sandels and didn't need mega bucks to teach the people his message.

Again, I'm not even convinced there ever was a Jesus.

That's nice. Now, riddle me this: How much money do you give directly to help the poor and homeless? Do you donate to homeless shelters? Do you volunteer regularly? Or, if helping the homeless isn't your thing, do you help shut-ins? Or inner city kids needing a mentor? Or any number of other people needing our compassion?

If you do, fantastic. If not, I really find it hard to take your criticism seriously. It is nothing more than empty posturing, nitpicking others who are actually doing something while you sit on the sidelines and carp.

As I stated earlier, there's plenty about the Catholic hierarchy with which to take issue. But the Catholic church does indeed have a strong and persistent record of outreach in ways large and small to the poor and hurting. Nothing really takes away from that. Further, most faith-based religious organizations tend to be far more efficient in marshaling labor and resources than any government program, getting help to where it's needed most, so I'm not going to begrudge the Catholics on this one.

On the other end of the spectrum from Catholics are the Mennonites. Ever been in a place where there's been a natural disaster? I have. A tornado roars through town and, the next morning, Mennonites simply show up with trailers filled with tools and begin to help the survivors pick up the pieces. They literally drive all night to a place to help people they don't know. They don't get enough credit. Compare that to how government decision making gets made. Heck, that hurricane flattened portions of the Florida panhandle nine months ago, and they are just now getting around to making appropriations.

Meanwhile, religious charitable organizations have been steadily at work helping those communities get back on their feet. Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists, and just about every other denomination on the planet are at work with food, material aid, helping hands, counseling, and a host of other useful assistance while the government has sat on its hands in the most criminal way possible. Ever spent time wandering around a Federal office building? Those places are Taj Mahals compared to your average church, run by bureaucrats who are more concerned with picking up a paycheck than picking someone up off the ground. Oh, sure, there are motivated people in the halls of government. But getting something done is the equivalent of tiptoeing through a minefield and clambering over razor wire.

So if you really are concerned about those in need, try doing something about it. Don't just volunteer for a day. Volunteer regularly. Don't just drop some change in a bucket at Thanksgiving or shove a couple of bucks out the window to a homeless guy on the corner holding a cardboard sign. Make helping others more central to who you are as a person. Then I'll be more charitable when it comes to your criticisms.

Last edited by MinivanDriver; Yesterday at 06:27 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,485 posts, read 10,408,804 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
That's nice. Now, riddle me this: How much money do you give directly to help the poor and homeless? Do you donate to homeless shelters? Do you volunteer regularly? Or, if helping the homeless isn't your thing, do you help shut-ins? Or inner city kids needing a mentor? Or any number of other people needing our compassion?

If you do, fantastic. If not, I really find it hard to take your criticism seriously. It is nothing more than empty posturing, nitpicking others who are actually doing something while you sit on the sidelines and carp.

As I stated earlier, there's plenty about the Catholic hierarchy with which to take issue. But the Catholic church does indeed have a strong and persistent record of outreach in ways large and small to the poor and hurting. Nothing really takes away from that. Further, most faith-based religious organizations tend to be far more efficient in marshaling labor and resources than any government program, getting help to where it's needed most, so I'm not going to begrudge the Catholics on this one.

On the other end of the spectrum from Catholics are the Mennonites. Ever been in a place where there's been a natural disaster? I have. A tornado roars through town and, the next morning, Mennonites simply show up with trailers filled with tools and begin to help the survivors pick up the pieces. They literally drive all night to a place to help people they don't know. They don't get enough credit. Compare that to how government decision making gets made. Heck, that hurricane flattened portions of the Florida panhandle nine months ago, and they are just now getting around to making appropriations.

Meanwhile, religious charitable organizations have been steadily at work helping those communities get back on their feet. Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists, and just about every other denomination on the planet are at work with food, material aid, helping hands, counseling, and a host of other useful assistance while the government has sat on its hands in the most criminal way possible. Ever spent time wandering around a Federal office building? Those places are Taj Mahals compared to your average church, run by bureaucrats who are more concerned with picking up a paycheck than picking someone up off the ground. Oh, sure, there are motivated people in the halls of government. But getting something done is the equivalent of tiptoeing through a minefield and clambering over razor wire.

So if you really are concerned about those in need, try doing something about it. Don't just volunteer for a day. Volunteer regularly. Don't just drop some change in a bucket at Thanksgiving or shove a couple of bucks out the window to a homeless guy on the corner holding a cardboard sign. Make helping others more central to who you are as a person. Then I'll be more charitable when it comes to your criticisms.
Let's have you try being honest.

What percent of all christians give SIGNIFICANT amounts of their income to charity and don't deduct it from their income taxes?

What percent of all christians volunteer REGULARLY for something that isn't benefiting either their own family or their own church?

Having lived with methodists and catholics most of my life, the true answer is -- not many.
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