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Old 07-23-2019, 04:15 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
748 posts, read 532,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Many relevant historians do. They admit the problem is deciding just how much is fiction and allegory. Again you are relying on what the majority believes instead of looking at the actual evidence I have talked about, the genuine letters of Paul and Hebrews.



Except the gospels have nothing in common with histories written at that time. They are anonymous; they do not include the author in the text; they do not name their sources; they do not discuss contradictions from different sources; important characters appear and then disappear when their role in the story is done; and miracles are common but not discussed as they are in histories.

They do follow a structure found in Greek fiction.



No, but academic historians do use faulty criteria invented by Christians, but used nowhere else in the study of history. And they are often unaware their evidence may be later interpolations. Some of them will surprise you.



Yet he has pointed out that Paul calls Jesus an angel in Galatians 4:14. the question is, was Jesus historical, very quickly made into a god, before the gospels reinvented him as a man; or was he a god made into a man? The first is possible, but the evidence we have is for the second.



You're really stretching the meaning of that verse beyond what is reasonable:



"and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself."



I don't see this as a synonymous parallelism, he's saying he was treated better than an angel. If anything, this is more of an example of synthetic parallelism, where a basic idea is put forward and then developed.




Paul's Christology isn't exactly like modern orthodox Christianity, but he sees Jesus as primarily a man, albeit one who has a special divine relationship with God. He does not understand Jesus as an angel, but as one "born of a woman" (Galatians 4:4).
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:57 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,182 posts, read 967,615 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
You're really stretching the meaning of that verse beyond what is reasonable:
No, I am telling you what it literally says. As does Ehrman in one of his books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
"and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself."
Hint, Paul did not write in English. And the as is not in the Greek, it is added to force the meaning of the text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
I don't see this as a synonymous parallelism, he's saying he was treated better than an angel. If anything, this is more of an example of synthetic parallelism, where a basic idea is put forward and then developed.
That is because you are using a bad translation. If only you could read the Greek.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
Paul's Christology isn't exactly like modern orthodox Christianity, but he sees Jesus as primarily a man, albeit one who has a special divine relationship with God. He does not understand Jesus as an angel, but as one "born of a woman" (Galatians 4:4).
Was Adam born? No. Are our spiritual bodies in heaven born? No. Does the Greek word Paul use (ginomai) mean born? Possibly, but I know of no other text where it is used to mean born. And Paul never uses it when he talks of people being born, only of things of divine manufacture, and Jesus. And if Jesus was human, why would Paul need to emphasize he was born, as that is true for all humans? And in Romans 1:2, Paul tells us where he found this information, revealed in OT scripture.

Shall we try James, the brother of the Lord next?
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:59 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,182 posts, read 967,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
So are you saying the people behind the Jesus Seminar (Westar) are biased by religious dogma? Do you really take that notion seriously? The Jesus Seminar has people from all different religious orientations- some are atheists.
No, once again, I am saying they are using silly criteria* no one else in the field of history uses. Garbage in, garbage out.

* invented by Christians.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:22 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
748 posts, read 532,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
No, once again, I am saying they are using silly criteria* no one else in the field of history uses. Garbage in, garbage out.

* invented by Christians.

So atheists and agnostic scholars are using silly criteria invented by Christians?
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:33 AM
 
39,286 posts, read 10,937,819 times
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Quite possibly. I have noted a regrettable tendency for skeptical Bible -scholars as well as believers, of course, to accept the Gospels as more or reliable report and even representing eyewitness accounts. It is not a sound assumption to start with, though I have to say that I credit a true story at base, and possibly even some eyewitness details by John.

Incidentally, I took 'angel' to signify that Jesus (and Paul) were claimed (bu Paul) as recipients from inspired messages from heaven. That was the meaning of 'angel'. Though of course he also believed that Jesus received the 'Messianic Spirit' that had been dwelling in heaven. That of course is what the Gospel story tells us - that it 'descended' as though a dove alighting (they take that simile too darn literally ) and which left the human Jesus on the cross.

This would not do for Roman Christianity, and so Jesus had to be divine from before the Baptism and After the crucifixion. Which is why totally contradictory nativity stories (1)were invented by Matthew and Luke and equally contradictory resurrection stories were concocted by Luke, Matthew and John, and that is why Mark does not have either a Nativity or a Resurrection story.

(1) it seems that Pneuma has finally given up the struggle to find anything to support the validity of the nativities, and that dedicated thread is now dormant. He would do no better with the resurrection.
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:58 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,182 posts, read 967,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
So atheists and agnostic scholars are using silly criteria invented by Christians?
Yes. For example the criteria of contradiction, which says if something contradicts, there must be a strong reason to include it, such as it being based on a historical Jesus.

There are other reasons for why texts with contradictions could be used, especially when you consider the basic canon we used was put together in response to Marcion. This was at a time when the gospels were not treated as the final word on Jesus, as can be seen in the writings of Justin Martyr around 150 AD. So they included texts that 'corrected' earlier gospels, leaving us with contradictory texts.

The criteria of multi-attestations is refuted when you see how later gospels plagiarized and altered earlier ones.

The criteria of embarrassment, just because Matthew was embarrassed by what Mark wrote does not mean Mark was embarrassed, especially as his gospel is allegory based on Paul and the Old Testament.

There is growing the idea that the criteria are not sound, and I can understand why.
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
748 posts, read 532,382 times
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Mark does have a resurrection story, though it ends abruptly.
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,704 posts, read 10,482,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
It was an era before mass communication- new religions spread gradually.


Almost all scholars and historians believe Jesus really existed, but there is some uncertainty about many of the details of his life, and what exactly his message was. However, we should not jump to the extreme conclusion that we can know nothing about the historical Jesus and early Christian movement.
I think you're a little "soft" on your critique, just as a few others are a little "hard" on their critiques.

But here's my viewpoint: Jesus almost certainly existed. But we don't really know much at all about what he did, we certainly don't know at all what he actually said, we can't confirm a single miracle, we can't confirm his virgin-godly birth or his godly resurrection. So from my personal viewpoint -- he's fairly irrelevant to me from a spiritual perspective. There are some valuable teachings and principles, although we don't really know where they came from, and many (perhaps most) of them are also found in other belief systems.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:39 AM
 
10,587 posts, read 15,682,627 times
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Whatever the origins of Jewish Christianity (Transponder)



early Christianity in the Middle East, as well as what had been Jewish trade routes (Mighty queen)


Correct. Jesus was a Jew. You can't take this out of contest and come to believe that he was a "panhuman" or something similar. He was a Jew. He spoke to Jews. All of of his sermon was for Jews.
Who did Saul write to? Other Jews.

Now, what ultimately gives the absolute power over humans? Religion. You can beat someone into submission, chain, jail, what not - but you can't harness their spirit. When you harness spirit - you have a willing acolyte who will bring his life to your altar. Along with the rest of what he has, as he's promised something more worthy in the afterlife.
Smart.
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Old 07-23-2019, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,314 posts, read 7,686,038 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
No, I am telling you what it literally says. As does Ehrman in one of his books.



Hint, Paul did not write in English. And the as is not in the Greek, it is added to force the meaning of the text.



That is because you are using a bad translation. If only you could read the Greek.



Was Adam born? No. Are our spiritual bodies in heaven born? No. Does the Greek word Paul use (ginomai) mean born? Possibly, but I know of no other text where it is used to mean born. And Paul never uses it when he talks of people being born, only of things of divine manufacture, and Jesus. And if Jesus was human, why would Paul need to emphasize he was born, as that is true for all humans? And in Romans 1:2, Paul tells us where he found this information, revealed in OT scripture.

Shall we try James, the brother of the Lord next?
Funny, my Lexicon translates the word "even as." Where are you getting your information?
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