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Old 07-23-2019, 06:02 PM
 
Location: California USA
966 posts, read 631,557 times
Reputation: 292

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wallbuilder View Post
It's interesting how Jesus was supposedly a real person in the Galilee are who had 1,000s of eye witnesses and yet there is practically no archeological evidence of the religion existing in that region of eminating from it. The Gospels were written in Greek and the early Christian church blomossomed out of Rome.
So Jesus "supposedly" was a real person?
Yet here we are 2000 years later talking about a supposedly real person
Bart Ehrman the prolific writer and skeptic scholar acknowledges Jesus was indeed real. And, I do realize that Bart says Jesus wasn't God but Jesus beat him to it by 2000 years. John 14:28, John 20:17,18 But yeah we have armchair scholars skeptical about his existence. Which is fine. Opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs.

Do you think people would risk horrible deaths for a myth?

"Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired."-Tacitus

From the writings of Tacitus we learn three things:

By the first century a sizable Christian population could be found in Rome
The pagans/Romans could distinguish between Christians and Jews
Pagans/Romans could trace the movement back to Roman Judea.

A movement that grew from a handful of followers under varying levels of persecution to the point that eventually Romans figured if you can't beat them (literally to death), join them

What archaeological evidence are you expecting to find? Early Christians didn't have idols, statutes etc. There were no grand meeting halls or temples to gather in. There were no elaborate vestments or utensils. Jesus was a Jew and would be found in the various temples and using the various scrolls that Jews would use. There's archaeological evidence for that. Is that what you mean?
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,716 posts, read 10,482,566 times
Reputation: 20471
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
So Jesus "supposedly" was a real person?
Yet here we are 2000 years later talking about a supposedly real person
Bart Ehrman the prolific writer and skeptic scholar acknowledges Jesus was indeed real. And, I do realize that Bart says Jesus wasn't God but Jesus beat him to it by 2000 years. John 14:28, John 20:17,18 But yeah we have armchair scholars skeptical about his existence. Which is fine. Opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs.

Do you think people would risk horrible deaths for a myth?

"Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired."-Tacitus

From the writings of Tacitus we learn three things:

By the first century a sizable Christian population could be found in Rome
The pagans/Romans could distinguish between Christians and Jews
Pagans/Romans could trace the movement back to Roman Judea.

A movement that grew from a handful of followers under varying levels of persecution to the point that eventually Romans figured if you can't beat them (literally to death), join them

What archaeological evidence are you expecting to find? Early Christians didn't have idols, statutes etc. There were no grand meeting halls or temples to gather in. There were no elaborate vestments or utensils. Jesus was a Jew and would be found in the various temples and using the various scrolls that Jews would use. There's archaeological evidence for that. Is that what you mean?
1. Yes, people have often risked their lives for what turned out to be myths.
2. Explain to me why those who choose to follow a Jew don't convert to Judaism. Explain to me that despite what many of you claim -- that America is a christian nation -- why over our history so many American christians disliked or even hated Jews.
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:17 PM
 
Location: US
28,017 posts, read 15,105,760 times
Reputation: 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Funny, my Lexicon translates the word "even as." Where are you getting your information?
I believe Harry actually reads Koine Greek...
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:31 PM
 
39,293 posts, read 10,937,819 times
Reputation: 5105
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
So Jesus "supposedly" was a real person?
Yet here we are 2000 years later talking about a supposedly real person
Bart Ehrman the prolific writer and skeptic scholar acknowledges Jesus was indeed real. And, I do realize that Bart says Jesus wasn't God but Jesus beat him to it by 2000 years. John 14:28, John 20:17,18 But yeah we have armchair scholars skeptical about his existence. Which is fine. Opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs.

Do you think people would risk horrible deaths for a myth?

"Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired."-Tacitus

From the writings of Tacitus we learn three things:

By the first century a sizable Christian population could be found in Rome
The pagans/Romans could distinguish between Christians and Jews
Pagans/Romans could trace the movement back to Roman Judea.

A movement that grew from a handful of followers under varying levels of persecution to the point that eventually Romans figured if you can't beat them (literally to death), join them

What archaeological evidence are you expecting to find? Early Christians didn't have idols, statutes etc. There were no grand meeting halls or temples to gather in. There were no elaborate vestments or utensils. Jesus was a Jew and would be found in the various temples and using the various scrolls that Jews would use. There's archaeological evidence for that. Is that what you mean?
This is remarkably similar to the 'Leap of faith' argument we get from the Believers, starting from the arguable 'First cause' (which has points for and against) and leap from an assumption that it is True all the way to One Particular god of One Particular religion.

Now, what you say about Tacitus is a fair point - I agree with it - and there are point for and against a real Jesus. But you make the leap of Faith from a possible historic Jewish Jesus to the Jesus of the Bible, and that is no longer credible. The gentile-Christian 'Gospel-Jesus' can be seen evolving in the four gospels (and the Gospel of Peter, for what that's worth) and that is an evolution from the teachings of Paul, who taught that Jesus was an emissary of God rather than God himself (two concepts that still cause problems today). And we can see real reasons to doubt that Paul got very much of his teachings from the Disciples at all.

If they were willing to die for their faith as much as any Muslim fanatic (though probably taking less Saturday shoppers out while doing it), it was faith in a spirit-resurrection- in other words, in their heads (that can be seen by Understanding I Cor.15.5-9 and comparing it with the gospel resurrection accounts) and not a factual one, to be brutally frank about it.

But we don't actually know that the disciples Did die for that reason. We don't really know how they died at all.

You can't trust Acts, written by that wholesale fabricator (1), Luke or any of the martydoms written by the early church to persuade their followers.

In fact you have nothing but a Jesus that isn't much support for Christianity at all, even if there was really such a person. So the 'spiderman apologetic' applies. That Spiderman does his stuff in places that are known to be real places, does not mean that Spiderman ever existed.

(1) you only have to look at what he did with the rejection at Nazareth, the Anointing at Bethany, or indeed the Resurrection-claim in his gospel, or the council of Jerusalem and the Escape from Damascus in Acts to see what a fiddler he is.
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Old Yesterday, 12:12 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,183 posts, read 967,615 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Funny, my Lexicon translates the word "even as." Where are you getting your information?
From not checking the passage in Greek, and working in near 40 C heat. You are correct, thank you.
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Old Yesterday, 12:15 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,183 posts, read 967,615 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
But yeah we have armchair scholars skeptical about his existence. Which is fine. Opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs.
We have actual scholars who say he probably did not exist, because that is what the first Christian texts say.
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Old Yesterday, 12:18 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,183 posts, read 967,615 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I believe Harry actually reads Koine Greek...
True, if only I had read the passage instead of going from memory. But I am glad Nate spotted my error, we all make mistakes, and it is good to have them corrected.
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Old Yesterday, 02:55 AM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,940 posts, read 5,010,553 times
Reputation: 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallbuilder View Post
It's interesting how Jesus was supposedly a real person in the Galilee are who had 1,000s of eye witnesses and yet there is practically no archeological evidence of the religion existing in that region of eminating from it. The Gospels were written in Greek and the early Christian church blomossomed out of Rome.
Galilee of the nations is Rome, it is symbolic for the world. God had taken the ten tribes out of the land of Joseph, out of Galilee and he seeded those ten tribes into all the Gentile nations that Rome repesented at the time.
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Old Yesterday, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,319 posts, read 7,686,038 times
Reputation: 1729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I believe Harry actually reads Koine Greek...
My lexicon is koine...ah, I see harry acknowledged the error..... didn't mention how it throws his premise into a cocked hat though

Last edited by nateswift; Yesterday at 06:47 PM.. Reason: Ah, I see
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Old Today, 01:16 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,183 posts, read 967,615 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
My lexicon is koine...ah, I see harry acknowledged the error..... didn't mention how it throws his premise into a cocked hat though
No it does not, it still says Jesus is an angel. You are picking the uncommon 'even as' translation because it forces the reading to say what you want.

Hos properly means as, and you need to read the passage in that way, with as, not even as.
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