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Old Yesterday, 02:39 AM
 
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Apostle Paul did evangelized Rome from the prison , were people got saved through Christ , and even Apostle Peter was murdered in the Rome area by the Roman barbarians
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Old Yesterday, 03:01 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,191 posts, read 967,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Apostle Paul did evangelized Rome from the prison , were people got saved through Christ ,
And afterwards went to Spain, where he was killed according to the earliest source about Paul's death (the first Clement Epistle).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
and even Apostle Peter was murdered in the Rome area by the Roman barbarians
According to later traditions, and based on a misreading of the first Clement Epistle.
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Old Yesterday, 06:19 AM
 
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Exactly. I have a theory. that Romans is the first epistle- in fact Paul's 'Synthesis' where he argues it out logically (in his view) and it is directed to the Roman Christian community. So they (1) were there even before Paul arrived. And the argument seems directed to both Jewish Christians and their Roman converts. Bible Scholarship tends to place Romans as a later epistle because the supposition is that the Roman church didn't exist until Paul founded it, but clearly the Roman Christians were there before Paul even visited and 'Romans' has all the hallmarks of an explanatory thesis directed to the Church he considered the mist significant, either by size or by location- the heart of the Roman world.

Though Paul obviously intended to go there, the story that he did so rests on Acts, which is a biographical novel by Luke based loosely upon Paul's letters up to the AD ^0's when the story finishes. Luke's vague ending of Paul in his house in Rome converting his regular visitors is his own invention, and that has been conveniently linked with the account of Nero blaming the Great fire of the Christians and killing them in the arena. But there is no real evidence that Paul was even there.

There is even less reason to suppose that Peter ever travelled to to Rome, let alone turning him into the 'First Pope'. The efforts by the vatican to produce a tomb and Peter's bones was based almost entirely on the eyes of faith.

None of these claims - that Paul and Peter ever went to Rome or that any of the apostles died for 'Their faith' (which is cunningly suggested to be that they saw a solid -body Jesus walking and talking) are based on anything reliable. Merely more faith -claims.

(1) the 'Christians' mentioned by Tacitus, is how I see it. Their claim that their founder (Chrestus, Tacitus names it) was executed by Pilate is all that we hear from Tacitus and there is no mention of a resurrection. For that, we have to wait for the Forgery inserted by a later Christian into Josephus.
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Old Yesterday, 06:24 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,321 posts, read 7,686,038 times
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
No it does not, it still says Jesus is an angel. You are picking the uncommon 'even as' translation because it forces the reading to say what you want.

Hos properly means as, and you need to read the passage in that way, with as, not even as.
And when a rational person reads, "as an angel" he does not conclude that the person "is" an angel, but "as if he were an angel," unless he has an axe to grind. Or, as post #11 notes, "you are really stretching."

Last edited by nateswift; Yesterday at 06:33 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 06:42 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,191 posts, read 967,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Exactly. I have a theory. that Romans is the first epistle-
While you are correct that the community in Rome was there before Paul (and in his letter to Rome he does not mention Peter / Cephas), Paul says he wants to go to Rome on his way to Spain, but not until he has gone to Jerusalem.

Romans 15

22 This is the reason why I have so often been hindered from coming to you. 23 But now, since I no longer have any room for work in these regions, and since I have longed for many years to come to you, 24 I hope to see you in passing as I go to Spain, and to be helped on my journey there by you, once I have enjoyed your company for a while. 25 At present, however, I am going to Jerusalem bringing aid to the saints. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem.

And Clement of Rome says Paul died in Spain.

1 Clem 5:5
By reason of jealousy and strife Paul by his example pointed out the prize of patient endurance. After that he had been seven times in bonds, had been driven into exile, had been stoned, had preached in the East and in the West, he won the noble renown which was the reward of his faith,

1 Clem 5:6
having taught righteousness unto the whole world and having reached the farthest bounds of the West; and when he had borne his testimony before the rulers, so he departed from the world and went unto the holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance.

That is why I doubt Romans is the first epistle.
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Old Yesterday, 07:09 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,191 posts, read 967,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
And when a rational person reads, "as an angel" he does not conclude that the person "is" an angel, but "as if he were an angel," unless he has an axe to grind. Or, as post #11 notes, "you are really stretching."
Or one can read the Greek. Like me, Ehrman, and other historians who point out this is what the text is saying.

But as you are familiar with your version of the text which is making you blind to the alternative, here is the text with English my translation.

and - the - test - of you - in - the - flesh - of me - not - you did despise me - nor - reject me with contempt - but - as (hos) - an angel - of God - you received - me - as (hos) - Christ - Jesus.

You are reading it :

and - the - test - of you - in - the - flesh - of me - not - you did despise me - nor - reject me with contempt - but - (as - an angel - of God - you received - me) - (as - Christ - Jesus).

But the first as is linking Paul to angel, and the second is linking angel to Jesus.

and - the - test - of you - in - the - flesh - of me - not - you did despise me - nor - reject me with contempt - but - (as - an angel - of God - you received - me - as - Christ - Jesus).

Men are not the first born of all creation. I will leave it to you to argue that first born does not literally mean first born.

Men are not pre-existent. Paul says Jesus is.

Men are not of the nature of God. Paul says Jesus is.

Men are not equal to God, Paul says Jesus is.

Do you still want to argue Paul thinks Jesus is a man, or do you have your own axe to grind?
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Old Yesterday, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,321 posts, read 7,686,038 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Or one can read the Greek. Like me, Ehrman, and other historians who point out this is what the text is saying.

But as you are familiar with your version of the text which is making you blind to the alternative, here is the text with English my translation.

and - the - test - of you - in - the - flesh - of me - not - you did despise me - nor - reject me with contempt - but - as (hos) - an angel - of God - you received - me - as (hos) - Christ - Jesus.

You are reading it :

and - the - test - of you - in - the - flesh - of me - not - you did despise me - nor - reject me with contempt - but - (as - an angel - of God - you received - me) - (as - Christ - Jesus).

But the first as is linking Paul to angel, and the second is linking angel to Jesus.

and - the - test - of you - in - the - flesh - of me - not - you did despise me - nor - reject me with contempt - but - (as - an angel - of God - you received - me - as - Christ - Jesus).

Men are not the first born of all creation. I will leave it to you to argue that first born does not literally mean first born.

Men are not pre-existent. Paul says Jesus is.

Men are not of the nature of God. Paul says Jesus is.

Men are not equal to God, Paul says Jesus is.

Do you still want to argue Paul thinks Jesus is a man, or do you have your own axe to grind?
When a person makes a really big deal about the idea that a word is NOT in the text and when shown that it IS, says that it makes no difference, I suspect, Diogenes, that the "honest man" is not in your mirror. Your convoluted rationale looks to me like a convoluted rationalization. Paul indicates that "the Christ" pre-existed the incarnation of the man in "Jesus," not that the man pre- existed.
No, I don't have an axe to grind, because the message taught by whatever "Jesus" might be is my focus and not the vehicle of that message. You seem to want to discredit the idea of a message by discrediting a man...wrong tree.
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Old Yesterday, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,346 posts, read 54,783,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Apostle Paul did evangelized Rome from the prison , were people got saved through Christ , and even Apostle Peter was murdered in the Rome area by the Roman barbarians
There were no such thing as "Roman barbarians". The barbarians hated Rome, as a matter of fact.

Peter is believed by some to have been killed by Romans.
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Old Yesterday, 08:27 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,191 posts, read 967,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
When a person makes a really big deal about the idea that a word is NOT in the text ...
I mentioned it, yes. A really big deal, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
... and when shown that it IS, says that it makes no difference, I suspect, Diogenes, that the "honest man" is not in your mirror.
So I made a honest mistake, admitted I made a honest mistake, yet I am not honest?

It is nearly 40 C here, I have a deadline to meet before this weekend, and I should have checked. The actual word that is not in the original are those translations that read 'or' like / as Christ Jesus*, and I confused the two. That is why my error makes no difference, as other people who read Greek have said.

* The NLT, zb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Your convoluted rationale looks to me like a convoluted rationalization.
My convoluted rationale? News flash, I did not write Paul's letters or invent the rules of Koine Greek.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Paul indicates that "the Christ" pre-existed the incarnation of the man in "Jesus," not that the man pre- existed.
So your straw man of what I said means I was correct, that Christ Jesus (Phillipians 2:5) was preexistent? And you accuse me of having a convoluted rationale.

I admit Paul may have known of a historical Jesus and turned him into a divine being, but the text does say he was a divine being, there is no avoiding this. Which is your problem, not mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
No, I don't have an axe to grind, because the message taught by whatever "Jesus" might be is my focus and not the vehicle of that message. You seem to want to discredit the idea of a message by discrediting a man...wrong tree.
I care not one iota for the message you need to cherry pick, I care for what the text actually says. So stop implying motive, that is not what a honest man would do. Do you have a mirror?
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Old Yesterday, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,321 posts, read 7,686,038 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
I mentioned it, yes. A really big deal, no.
When I reread post #12, I see a " big deal" no matter how much you wish to downplay when you were shown to be wrong, and THAT is not being honest.
Quote:
So I made a honest mistake, admitted I made a honest mistake, yet I am not honest?

It is nearly 40 C here, I have a deadline to meet before this weekend, and I should have checked. The actual word that is not in the original are those translations that read 'or' like / as Christ Jesus*, and I confused the two. That is why my error makes no difference, as other people who read Greek have said.

* The NLT, zb.



My convoluted rationale? News flash, I did not write Paul's letters or invent the rules of Koine Greek.



So your straw man of what I said means I was correct, that Christ Jesus (Phillipians 2:5) was preexistent? And you accuse me of having a convoluted rationale.

I admit Paul may have known of a historical Jesus and turned him into a divine being, but the text does say he was a divine being, there is no avoiding this. Which is your problem, not mine.
Are you aware in any sense of the word what "incarnated" means?
Quote:

I care not one iota for the message you need to cherry pick, I care for what the text actually says. So stop implying motive, that is not what a honest man would do. Do you have a mirror?
My mirror shows a man who may make a mistake but who is not obviously following an agenda at least.
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