U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-25-2019, 09:29 AM
 
39,326 posts, read 10,946,230 times
Reputation: 5106

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
While you are correct that the community in Rome was there before Paul (and in his letter to Rome he does not mention Peter / Cephas), Paul says he wants to go to Rome on his way to Spain, but not until he has gone to Jerusalem.

Romans 15

22 This is the reason why I have so often been hindered from coming to you. 23 But now, since I no longer have any room for work in these regions, and since I have longed for many years to come to you, 24 I hope to see you in passing as I go to Spain, and to be helped on my journey there by you, once I have enjoyed your company for a while. 25 At present, however, I am going to Jerusalem bringing aid to the saints. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem.

And Clement of Rome says Paul died in Spain.

1 Clem 5:5
By reason of jealousy and strife Paul by his example pointed out the prize of patient endurance. After that he had been seven times in bonds, had been driven into exile, had been stoned, had preached in the East and in the West, he won the noble renown which was the reward of his faith,

1 Clem 5:6
having taught righteousness unto the whole world and having reached the farthest bounds of the West; and when he had borne his testimony before the rulers, so he departed from the world and went unto the holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance.

That is why I doubt Romans is the first epistle.
Yes. Paul of course refers to his going round his converts with the collecting tin pretty much at the outset of his mission. He is collecting for the 'saints' (or 'Elect' AkA as 'The Meek', or some call them Ebionites)which is to say for the Jesus party or Nazoreans in Jerusalem and undoubtedly because of the famine (45 AD) in Judea. This was Paul's cunning plan to buy himself credibility for his mission with Jesus' disciples.

I don't of course place any reliance on Clement who appears to have done a 'Luke/Acts' which is take a few comments from Paul's letters and build an entire biography on them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-25-2019, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,741 posts, read 10,490,917 times
Reputation: 20500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
...

Almost all scholars and historians believe Jesus really existed, but there is some uncertainty about many of the details of his life, and what exactly his message was. However, we should not jump to the extreme conclusion that we can know nothing about the historical Jesus and early Christian movement.
I agree with your last sentence, but the NT is the skimpiest biography I ever read. I think saying that "there is some uncertainty" is a gross understatement.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2019, 09:52 AM
 
39,326 posts, read 10,946,230 times
Reputation: 5106
I agree. But this is why Josephus is invaluable; he provides an historical and chronological framework for the events 5 B.C to after 80 AD with mention of the baptist, Antipas, Pilate, Herod, Archelaus (in some detail), the kings Herod Agrippa I and II. and the High priests and Roman governors, and also the many insurrections. Mention of any of the stuff associated with Jesus - mundane like the bust - up in the Temple (and at festival time when Pilate with his complement of the 500 garrison with the 500 he brought from Caesarea, would have been keeping order) to the rumours or wild events like the massacre of innocents or the mobile star. There is NOTHING..which is of course why somebody had to produce a potted bio. of Jesus which even the Christian scholarship has to admit, is at least Partly forgery. I reckon it's all forgery.

This means that either there was originally nothing there about Jesus or it was there and it was removed. That may seem hard to believe, but the Church succeeded in obliterating ALL other gospels but the approved ones and we only knew of them from hostile references in the Church fathers. I can't resist dropping a hint that I suspect that Luke knew some history that has been lost to us..including some Galileans that Pilate chopped up in front of the Temple. There is no such event in Josephus, or in Philo. Is this simply Luke's invention or is there an event which for some reason the church removed?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2019, 10:05 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,203 posts, read 969,993 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
When I reread post #12, I see a " big deal" no matter how much you wish to downplay when you were shown to be wrong, and THAT is not being honest.
So I am dishonest because your perception is screwed.

It was an aside, I was wrong, but the text still says Jesus was an angel. And the only person making a big deal is you. Now deal with the arguments and stop with the ad hominems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Are you aware in any sense of the word what "incarnated" means?
Yes. And historical people are incarnated from pre-existent divine beings? Do you see the problem yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
My mirror shows a man who may make a mistake but who is not obviously following an agenda at least.
Again, I did not write Paul's letters or invent Koine Greek. But you stay with the fallacies if it makes you feel better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2019, 10:09 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,203 posts, read 969,993 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I don't of course place any reliance on Clement who appears to have done a 'Luke/Acts' which is take a few comments from Paul's letters and build an entire biography on them.
Maybe, or Clement may not be early, or could be interpolated. But two verses makes an entire biography?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2019, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,329 posts, read 7,689,249 times
Reputation: 1731
Alright, Harry, you tell me what the import of the idea is that "Jesus" never existed as a man.
Personally, I prefer the term "embodied" instead of "incarnated"because it seems to me to emphasize the idea or the message as opposed to the person, and the latter has been turned into a "religion" that often ignores that message.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2019, 10:24 AM
 
39,326 posts, read 10,946,230 times
Reputation: 5106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Maybe, or Clement may not be early, or could be interpolated. But two verses makes an entire biography?
Well...a very brief bio. compared to Luke -Acts. But i argue that the method was the same.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2019, 10:28 AM
Status: "Scarface IS fiction!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
5,203 posts, read 969,993 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Alright, Harry, you tell me what the import of the idea is that "Jesus" never existed as a man.
Do you mean why it is important to me? I find it an interesting idea in the evolution of the different versions of Christianity, and answers better some odd questions that a historical Jesus does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Personally, I prefer the term "embodied" instead of "incarnated"because it seems to me to emphasize the idea or the message as opposed to the person, and the latter has been turned into a "religion" that often ignores that message.
This I often ask myself, does the nature of Jesus, whether myth, man or angel change the message at all?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2019, 12:24 PM
 
10,595 posts, read 15,690,269 times
Reputation: 11970
Religions do not appear and spread world wide on their own.
Someone does the job.
Simple example. Look at scientology. Major marketing effort. Very persistent, stubborn, aiming at celebrities and men in power. Goal, as usual, is same old - harness power of humans via power over their minds. I am not discussing principles of scientology. This is irrelevant. I am pointing out that a religion is not a dandelion that grows anywhere fast and furious and is distributed by forces of nature and animal kingdom.
I am pointing out that there has to be a major HUMAN effort in starting and developing any religion. As soon as it gets to a certain level of might, which is, usually, its incorporation into state governing institutions or having heavy influence on them - then it's done a faster way, by fire and sword. Plenty of historical examples of that.
Now, let's unwind all this and recall simple facts. There was some man in backward area of Roman Empire, that did some miracles, preached some ideas and was crucified. Thing is, it's East. men like this were there ALWAYS and plenty of them at the same time. East was always full of gurus, magicians, saints, rebels, what not.

That's how East was, is and will be.

In Hebrew oral and written traditions, there are many references to then living men, that could be a Yeshua that later became Jesus.

Hence, from a stand point of that time and Roman Empire, it was some insignificant occurrence that should have been quickly forgotten by everyone. One more, one less - who cares.

Yet, somehow this particular story was singled out, cherished and developed into a world wide religion.
Before going any further, I'll add something else. Say, a great guru, teacher, preacher appears somewhere. Man gets enlightened. Holy Spirit touches him. Good. Unless word about him spreads, no one willl ever know. Especially, in times of no mass media and means of self promotion. Your close will know, they will tell a few more, those few - some more. Say, crowds finally start coming to see this guru, to be touched by him, so on. Problem with that is - he's mortal. He dies, or gets killed - and that stream is GONE. Crowds dissipate, teaching fizzles away. I know of only 2 gurus of magnitude enough to maintain their teachings after their death - Sukyamuni Buddha and Mahavir, with Jainism dying out and Buddhism dead, as His teaching, 500 years after his death.

Back to my point. This did not happen with Yeshua. And Buddha draw much more people, many thousands more, than Yeshua did. He dedicated his lifetime and HUGE effort to build and spread His teaching, he left dozens, if not hundreds, of enlightened students behind, while Yeshua did none of that. His effort to preserve His teaching was minuscule. His religion was built by people that never saw Him.

Yet, HIS teaching kept growing and growing and growing. And, growing in the right direction - infiltrating those in power.

Logically, someone invested major effort into promoting it. That had to be done by very well organized, very much so dedicated, widely spread network of people, who had same goal in mind. To promote a particular teaching, turn it into particular religion and harness as many human minds, as possible. Now, should you tell me, that such Syziphian effort was accomplished by few hundreds of folks, hiding somewhere in catacombs - I'll call you naive or insane. It simply does not work that way. And goal is very profitable in its final results, as when you harness the minds, you harness the pockets. You harness the power. Outside of some oddballs, all church upper echelons lived in luxury. heck, even lay priests lived better than their parochies. That's how Roman Catholic Church came to be the largest business in the world. No one really knows, how truly rich it is. But, you may want to research, who is that wealth custodian...
You want to promore religion fast - create martyrs. What was the Super Bowl equivalent of those times? Yes, Colosseum and games in it. Find those of true faith, bring them there, slaughter in some inhumane ways - in presence of thousands of spectators - and you just got yourself thousands of mouths that will spread the word about that "sntrange superstition from the East that makes people fearless of death'. Best marketing ever.

And what was the center of power in those times? Rome.


Sapientis sat. Always, always listen to simple ancient maxim - QUI BONO. Who benefits. Those who benefited, those built the religion. "rounded" its principles for the lay minds perception, added submission to those in power, to amke it appeal to them, and promoted, promoted, promoted. Simple. And so humane.


Yes, yes. I know. It was all god's will and Holy Spirit doings. I know.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2019, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,329 posts, read 7,689,249 times
Reputation: 1731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Do you mean why it is important to me? I find it an interesting idea in the evolution of the different versions of Christianity, and answers better some odd questions that a historical Jesus does not.



This I often ask myself, does the nature of Jesus, whether myth, man or angel change the message at all?
Aside from my very strong impression of larger investment than you acknowledge, we may be closer than it appears: I would be just as happy to say " the message of living in community given in the legend of Jesus."

I would like to see an example of a question answered better by the "incorporeal" idea than " historical."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top