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Old 07-26-2019, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
22,198 posts, read 14,580,312 times
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People can disagree about these things, but there is need for animosity or snark.

People of faith have a right to their faith. People who disbelieve, have a right to disbelieve.

I don’t know which is worse: fundamentalists trying to force their interpretation of the Bible on the entire country, or fervent atheists to trying debunk others’ deeply held beliefs.

Neither are pleasant people.
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
23,023 posts, read 10,583,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Here's the point:


If Jesus were really the Messiah sent by God to redeem us; if God was the ONLY God from the very beginning, then the Jews would NEVER have been an indigenous offshoot of the Canaanites, and everything we read in the Torah would be soundly backed by archeological and historical evidence. All this would be true IF the Israelite God were the true one and only God of the universe.


But none of it is true. The Exodus is made-up. The flood is made-up. Adam and Eve are made-up. All of it is fantasy. This proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the God of the Jews is NOT the one true God. He's just a pagan mythical god who sprung from a wide pantheon of pagan Canaanite gods. The Jews then are NOT a special people chosen by God, except in their own minds. If all this is true, then Jesus is just an imposter messiah not spoken of at all in the Old Testament. Thus the Christians are worshiping and giving their lives over to an ordinary mortal man who was crucified and died and never resurrected.



That's the point.
Despite being an atheist, I don't see how what you've posted here "proves beyond a shadow of doubt" anything.

But, similarly, in post #5 I would ask Silibran how that post leads one to firmly believe that Jesus was literally the son of god, committed all sorts of miracles, and then rise from the dead.
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
23,023 posts, read 10,583,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
He's God, so, well....he wrote it.
And here's another problem with christianity.

How many christian posters here over the years have said that the bible was not written by the hand of god. And yet, now you say it was.

If you guys can't get your own acts together, why should anyone believe you?

Last edited by phetaroi; 07-26-2019 at 10:47 PM..
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Old 07-26-2019, 10:41 PM
 
11,341 posts, read 11,344,405 times
Reputation: 3502
Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
People can disagree about these things, but there is need for animosity or snark.

People of faith have a right to their faith. People who disbelieve, have a right to disbelieve.

I don’t know which is worse: fundamentalists trying to force their interpretation of the Bible on the entire country, or fervent atheists to trying debunk others’ deeply held beliefs.

Neither are pleasant people.

I am not trying to debunk fundamentalists' long-held beliefs. That would be impossible to do. I'd have an easier job of it jumping to the moon. What I am trying to do is to warn off the silent newbies who frequent these boards and who are contemplating joining Christianity to actually see the archeological and historical evidence that Christianity is a pack of lies--a house of cards built on beach sand. No one who wants to join a religion should join it because they are fooled by cunning desperate ministers into believing that it is the one true religion founded by the true divine son of God named Jesus.

If people want to join Christianity they should do it because it offers some good tips for living, not because they fear eternal damnation and they think Jesus can save their souls. He can't. It's all pure mythological hogwash.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Germany
5,303 posts, read 995,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Oh so now you support archaeology as evidence when it suits you?
Typical Jeff misrepresentation. We support archaeology even when it supports some of the bible stories, because that is what rational, honest people do. You are the one who only supports archaeology as evidence when it suits you, but disregard it the 99.999% when it does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Just because the Biblical narrative was committed to record many years after something like the Epic of Gilgamesh doesn't mean that it stole from that story either.
No, but the unlikely parallels show this is what most likely happened.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:09 PM
 
Location: California USA
987 posts, read 639,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Christians are taught from Sunday School that God chose the Israelites to be a particular people unto Himself, but a close examination of the Old Testament reveals this is not true. The earliest Hebrews either came from the Far East, as far east as India and wandered into Canaan and settled among the Canaanites, or they were an indigenous sub-tribe of the Canaanites and branched off as many tribes did in those days to set up their own camps. Contrary to what the Bible teaches, the Hebrews never overpowered the Canaanites and took the land from them as a result of God's promise to the mythical Bible characters Abraham and Moses, via Joshua, also a mythical Bible character. All this is archeologically sound.

Modern archaeology has largely shown that determining the historicity of the religious narrative is impossible,[7] with many scholars viewing the stories as inspiring national myth narratives with little historical value. The Israelites and their culture, according to the modern archaeological account, did not overtake the region by force, but instead branched out of the indigenous Canaanite peoples that long inhabited the Southern Levant, Syria, ancient Israel, and the Transjordan region[8][9][10]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites

As this is all archeological truth, it then points to the fact that EVERYTHING people read in the Torah and Joshua is pure myth invented by Hebrew scribes and scholars to tell a great and glorious fable of early Israel and of God's dealings with His people. But none of it is true. It is no better than Sumerian and Akkadian mythology from which Genesis draws its...well...genesis!
__________________

Garden of Eden

The parallels between the stories of Enkidu/Shamhat and Adam/Eve have been long recognized by scholars.[24][25] In both, a man is created from the soil by a god, and lives in a natural setting amongst the animals. He is introduced to a woman who tempts him. In both stories the man accepts food from the woman, covers his nakedness, and must leave his former realm, unable to return. The presence of a snake that steals a plant of immortality from the hero later in the epic is another point of similarity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_o...Sumerian_poems

Now it is from this pagan background that Jesus emerges when the Jews had evolved into a monotheistic religion and had dumped the pantheon of Canaanite gods they had worshiped as late as the 5th Century BC--gods like El, Asherah, Ba'al, Anat, Dagon, Molech, and two dozen more.

A huge question arises from all this:

If God originally was part of a pantheon of Canaanite gods, and yahweh eventually emerged as the head god of the Israelites and struggled mightily according to the Old Testament to establish his supremacy among all these gods e.g


For who in the skies [which other gods in the skies]above can compare with the Lord?
Who is like the Lord among the heavenly beings [sons of the gods--Hebrew: bene 'elim ]?
7 In the council of the holy ones [the council of the other gods] God (Yahweh) is greatly feared;
Lookie here: >>>>>he is more awesome than all who surround him.<<<<<
8 Who is like you, Lord God Almighty? Psalm 89:5-10


Then how do Christians look to Jesus as the son of the one and only Christian God and a god himself????

If that passage in Psalm 89 doesn't provide clear Biblical evidence that the Jews were worshiping many gods as late as David and Solomon then I imagine nothing truthful could be shown to Christians that would convince them their religion has been ginned from its very beginnings.
Meh, Why would this be disturbing to Christians who have taken the time to examine the Hebrew Scriptures, the OT?

The offspring of Abraham, collectively, were never really comfortable with worshipping YHWH as the one true God. In fact, at one time there were only some 7000 worshipers of YHWH with the rest serving other gods +/- YHWH. Even Solomon in his later years practiced a form of "interfaith." The Bible itself says the Hebrews conquest was incomplete. The result proved a disaster for Israel.

"But they mingled with the nations And adopted their ways. 36 They kept serving their idols, And these became a snare to them.37 They would sacrifice their sons And their daughters to demons.38 They kept spilling innocent blood,The blood of their own sons and daughters Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Caʹnaan;And the land was polluted with bloodshed. 39 They became unclean by their works; They committed spiritual prostitution by their deeds."-Psalm 106:35-39

God promised Abraham that from his seed all the nations would be blessed. He didn't need 100% of the Hebrews to be on board although God did try. He really, really tried. Nevertheless he kept his promise to Abraham in the form of the Messiah.

It's a matter of Biblical record.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Germany
5,303 posts, read 995,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
It is true that archeology has failed to substantiate the earliest origin stories of the Israelites.

But sweeping generalizations are never accurate. IMO, Jesus took what he knew of Torah and created something new on its foundation. He was a radical and beloved teacher who was uninterested in the trappings of high religion.

His teachings about love and the value of repentance have deep meaning, if you dare look into them.
If you dare look at those teachings, keep the OT rules, finding your neighbors wife attractive is a sin, give up your family for Jesus, do not think for yourself, do not wash your hands before eating, ...
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Old 07-27-2019, 01:27 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,400 posts, read 10,408,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
The Bible narrative is that after the towel of Babel,...
Bath or hand?



Quote:
Certainly explains why you have a flood story in every major culture around the world.
...but we don't!



Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
People can disagree about these things, but there is need for animosity or snark.


People of faith have a right to their faith.
Indeed they do. What they don't have is the right to demand 'respect' for those beliefs.


Quote:
I don’t know which is worse: fundamentalists trying to force their interpretation of the Bible on the entire country, or fervent atheists to trying debunk others’ deeply held beliefs.
Do you also think that we should also respect the deeply held beliefs of people who believe that child pornography or animal abuse is acceptable..huh?
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Old 07-27-2019, 02:47 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,393 posts, read 7,728,692 times
Reputation: 1737
Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
It is true that archeology has failed to substantiate the earliest origin stories of the Israelites.

But sweeping generalizations are never accurate. IMO, Jesus took what he knew of Torah and created something new on its foundation. He was a radical and beloved teacher who was uninterested in the trappings of high religion.

His teachings about love and the value of repentance have deep meaning, if you dare look into them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
If you dare look at those teachings, keep the OT rules, finding your neighbors wife attractive is a sin, give up your family for Jesus, do not think for yourself, do not wash your hands before eating, ...
Seriously? That's the kind of tripe you garner from what Jesus taught? No wonder you come up with such weird ides as that Jesus never existed as a man and are unable to back them up. It's the kind of thing I see a lot from pseudo-intellectuals.
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Old 07-27-2019, 03:26 AM
 
Location: Germany
5,303 posts, read 995,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Seriously? That's the kind of tripe you garner from what Jesus taught?
There is this collection of writings that tell you what Jesus allegedly said. It is called the New Testament. It is all in there. I would quote the actual passages, but you will just pretend they mean something else, or use ad hoc arguments to argue contradictory passages are for different groups of people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
No wonder you come up with such weird ides as that Jesus never existed as a man and are unable to back them up.
The first Christian texts (Paul, Hebrews) say Jesus was a divine being, this is a fact whether Jesus existed or not. The references to Jesus being 'human' are found in OT scripture, revelations and allegories (end of Galatians 3 - Galatians 4), so it is 50/50 whether Paul knew of a human Jesus, because nowhere does Paul say where or when Jesus took on human form.

I can even demonstrate using the early Christian fathers why the brother of the Lord passage (your strongest argument) MAY even be an interpolation. But even if genuine, the passage never says Jesus was a literal brother, so even here you are left with a 50/50.

Even the early Christians argued against people who thought Jesus did not exist.

I have the evidence for my position, all you can do is point out it is not conclusive. And I would agree with you.

I can back my arguments up all day long. You have to support your apologetics by reading the later, fictional gospels back into Paul; and by ignoring any possible alternatives, even when backed up by evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
It's the kind of thing I see a lot from pseudo-intellectuals.
But you think being honest is being dishonest, so you are in no position to argue about who is an intellectual and who is not. You cherry pick a lexicon to tell someone who knows Greek they are wrong, which is something pseudo-intellectuals do.

I have the texts, you have ad hominems. I see a flaw in your arguments.
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