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I know, that's what blows the story of the great flood out of the water (no pun intended). If creationism were true we'd have a major layer of sediment with all of the animals killed in it, that's irrefutable and just common sense. Also, because creationists believe the earth is only a few thousand years old that doesn't give very much time for fossils to have accumulated from the end of this supposed flood to the present day. None of this makes any sense whatsoever. Your comment about fossils being present on mountains makes the case for creationism even weaker when you really examine it. Marine sediments take a very long time to build up with the remains of fossilized marine life, far longer than Noah's flood. Also, what would cause marine life at the bottom of the ocean to end up on the tops of mountains just because about 30,000 feet of water was added on top of the oceans? You really haven't thought this through have you? What is really occurring is that plate tektonics have caused the upheaval of land that was once at the bottom of the ocean. The tektonic plate of the subcontinent of India is pushing underneath Asia and over millions of years mountain ranges have been formed which are the tallest in the world. The young earth creationist point of view again fails to consider the geologic processes that shape the earth and the time scales that are necessary for this to happen. No one has answered my basic question about the missing layer of sediment with the fossils of every species of land animal that has ever lived. Are we supposed to believe that these drowning animals organized themselves into groups and that sediments somehow surrounded them in such a way that animals from other groups would never be found in the same sediment layer? To the best of my knowledge flood waters just wreak havoc and don't have any particular task in mind like trying to trick human beings into believing that groups of animals must have lived in different time periods because their fossils are found in different layers of strata.
You are in error because you have attempted to deduce the evidence of the flood. When this evidence of yours isn't found then you are dismissing creationism. I can do the same thing with evolution.
There does not need to be a single sediment layer with every species located on it. This is abserd and no scientist would stand with this faulty reasoning especially on a global scale.
If we look to the wild animal tend to herd with their own kind. Animals also move to climates that they prefer. The African Elephant is not found in northern Europe except in a zoo. So if a Global flood occured today you would still reject it because kangaroos would be found grouped together in layer around austrailia.
The same is true about the past. T-rex's herded with T-rex's. We tend to find groups of them in similar layers. We also must remember that after the flood there we lesser floods as water washed of the continents.
The flood probable began with a meteor shower. The bible says that the fountains of the deep were broken up. Which points to the formation of the techtonic plates. As the cool ocean water hit the magma below, this cause a reaction to throw steam into the atmosphere which condense and formed the rain of the flood.
We must also break down our idea that if we measure something today like continental shift, we cannot assume that it has always been progressing at that speed. What might appear very slow today could have occoured very fast at one time. So to attribute millions of year to something based on a measurement today is missleading, because we do not know if the conditions have always been the same. And with how the world changes we have to leave open the idea that it has changed in the past and sometimes rapidly.
The K-T boundary that marks the end of the era of the dinosaurs about 65 million years ago is very clearly found in the strata of the earth and is also covered with a sprinkling of iridium which is a very rare substance on earth but is common in meteors. Massive catastrophic events do leave evidence and this boundary is found all around the globe. Dinosaur fossils are found below it but never above it. I am merely suggesting that the great flood as described in the Bible would also leave a massive amount of evidence due to the worldwide impact it would have left. I realize that a cow probably wouldn't be found right next to a gorilla because they lived in different environments. What I am suggesting is that they should all be found in the same strata worldwide because that strata is from the same event but we don't find anything like this in the fossil record. Paleontologists have found huge areas where large numbers of animals have died all at one time period and have been preserved as fossils. There is a good example of this in Nebraska where large numbers of mammals died from volcanic activity from a supervolcano located in present day Yellowstone Park. They're buried in volcanic ash. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a great flood scenario to leave similar evidence. We'll never find this evidence because there has never been a worldwide flood.
The K-T boundary that marks the end of the era of the dinosaurs about 65 million years ago is very clearly found in the strata of the earth and is also covered with a sprinkling of iridium which is a very rare substance on earth but is common in meteors. Massive catastrophic events do leave evidence and this boundary is found all around the globe. Dinosaur fossils are found below it but never above it. I am merely suggesting that the great flood as described in the Bible would also leave a massive amount of evidence due to the worldwide impact it would have left. I realize that a cow probably wouldn't be found right next to a gorilla because they lived in different environments. What I am suggesting is that they should all be found in the same strata worldwide because that strata is from the same event but we don't find anything like this in the fossil record. Paleontologists have found huge areas where large numbers of animals have died all at one time period and have been preserved as fossils. There is a good example of this in Nebraska where large numbers of mammals died from volcanic activity from a supervolcano located in present day Yellowstone Park. They're buried in volcanic ash. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a great flood scenario to leave similar evidence. We'll never find this evidence because there has never been a worldwide flood.
The K-T boundry which you describe matches with my explanation that the flood occour by meteors striking the earth creating the tectonic plates. After the year long flood the meteoric dust in the air settled creating this layer.
Since the flood was global we should expect to find the remains of buried animals all over the globe, and we do.
The flood rapidly buried all of the various animals with an aqueous born sediment, which happens to be the best way to create a fossil and prevent scavengers from getting at it and oxygen from deteriorating the fossil. Yes, you can also have other types of burial like volcanic ash to preserve the remains, but these are local. See mount vesuvius and the Island of Pompei.
The K-T boundry and the fossil reccord are evidence of the global flood of Noah. But, you have rejected this possibility. Because if it is true, which it is, then that means the rest of the things said in the bible must be true. Which includes that there is a God and that Man was created only 6000 years ago. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that we must accept him in order to receive eternal life.
I don’t see how arguing that the great flood was produced by natural causes proves a god had a hand in it.
Even if there was a world wide flood that was caused by natural events, that just tells me no god had anything to do with it.
I don’t see how arguing that the great flood was produced by natural causes proves a god had a hand in it.
Even if there was a world wide flood that was caused by natural events, that just tells me no god had anything to do with it.
The imagination of man is impressive.
By the same token, whether or not there was a world-wide flood doesn't negate the idea/theory/belief that our universe had an intelligent designer/creator. Somehow, a mud-hole, one-celled animals, and a bolt of lightening, just doesn't quite cut for me, at least, not without a Creator behind it. Admittedly, I'm not a scientist, but I don't understand how something, (starting off with the gases and dust, as the foundation for the universe), can come from a void. I've never heard a satisfactory answer as to where these building blocks came from, in the first place. So, I think my belief in a Creator is just as good an explaination as any. I don't particularly have a problem with millions and billions of years being involved. I just happen to believe that Someone had a hand in it.
As far as the flood in Genesis, it could be that it was a localized flood, but of such horrendous proportions, and with such devastation, that it was told of, repeatedly, and grew in the telling, (kind of like the proverbial fish story). Of course, on the other hand, there are many stories of a Great Flood, around the world, so who knows? Sometimes, we, in our modern society, are much too quick to dismiss the stories and legends of our ancient ancestors. I wonder if anyone has really researched, compared, and studied these stories? It would be interesting to see both the similarities, and the differences.
I don’t see how arguing that the great flood was produced by natural causes proves a god had a hand in it.
Even if there was a world wide flood that was caused by natural events, that just tells me no god had anything to do with it.
The imagination of man is impressive.
You are right, science cannot prove God. Science can only make a finite number of calculations of a finite area of space. The results of science are open to interpretation.
If however a global flood occured then this points to the historical reccord of the bible which detailed the event. This puts the posibility of God out there. The athiest, the evolutionary scientist cannot even allow this because their science was founded upon His absence.
Believing in God can be scientific, but Charles Darwin, Erasemus Darwin, Gould, Hawkings... have so rejected Him that there is now, no return from the hole they have created for themselves. And there desire is to not be alone so they want to take you with them.
First of all, 7 each of the "clean" animals and birds, 2 each of the unclean, male and female went into the ark. But, to answer your question about strata layers, bones, and fossils you must realize that for such a calamity as the flood, such forces were unleashed so as to cause plates to move and buckle, mountains were built, volcanic action took place all over the globe (Gen. 7:23 says they were destroyed from the earth, not the flood), thus the entire crust of the earth underwent change. (read Modern Creation Trilogy by Dr. Henry M. Morris and Dr. John D. Morris. Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 1996) This is why you can find fossils on or near the peaks of the world's tallest mountains. The flood had covered the entire surface of the earth for a year.
Does any one know?
When the tsunami happened, the news reported briefly that the earths' axis shifted enough that the equator shifted slightly? If that is true, that as result, there will be noticeable changes in the climate in some regions on the earth.
If that is possible, could it not explain why places like Sweden, Alaska, and Greenland were once tropical forests? Is it not a possibility that a large natural disaster (such as a world wide flood) moved the axis of the earth making the northern cap area of the earth into the first "frozen tundra"?
Genesis 7:21-22 -- And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
Insects don't have nostrils so there's no reason to assume every single insect population was wiped out. This also applies to plants, as they don't have the breath of life to begin with. Plants wither and decay, they don't "die" as man and animals do. I'm sure many thousands of insects died, but some must have survived for insects to be around today.
Give me a break! You're once again begging the question! Why do you assume that the Bible's author(s) *knew* that insects have no nostrils? I doubt that they had examined any significant number of insect species to have such a point of view. You're interpreting the Bible's text through the eyes of a 21st century American.
How about alligators and crocodiles, and manatees, and dolphins, and ... ?
Not to mention ... PEOPLE! It's not out of the realm of the ordinary for human beings to successfully FLOAT on or amid debris in the open ocean for the proverbial "40 days and 40 nights."
The whole Flood story is so outlandish as to be easily dismissed out of hand by any thinking person.
Last edited by ParkTwain; 04-17-2008 at 02:55 PM..
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). If creationism were true we'd have a major layer of sediment with all of the animals killed in it, that's irrefutable and just common sense. Also, because creationists believe the earth is only a few thousand years old that doesn't give very much time for fossils to have accumulated from the end of this supposed flood to the present day. None of this makes any sense whatsoever. Your comment about fossils being present on mountains makes the case for creationism even weaker when you really examine it. Marine sediments take a very long time to build up with the remains of fossilized marine life, far longer than Noah's flood. Also, what would cause marine life at the bottom of the ocean to end up on the tops of mountains just because about 30,000 feet of water was added on top of the oceans? You really haven't thought this through have you? What is really occurring is that plate tektonics have caused the upheaval of land that was once at the bottom of the ocean. The tektonic plate of the subcontinent of India is pushing underneath Asia and over millions of years mountain ranges have been formed which are the tallest in the world. The young earth creationist point of view again fails to consider the geologic processes that shape the earth and the time scales that are necessary for this to happen. No one has answered my basic question about the missing layer of sediment with the fossils of every species of land animal that has ever lived. Are we supposed to believe that these drowning animals organized themselves into groups and that sediments somehow surrounded them in such a way that animals from other groups would never be found in the same sediment layer? To the best of my knowledge flood waters just wreak havoc and don't have any particular task in mind like trying to trick human beings into believing that groups of animals must have lived in different time periods because their fossils are found in different layers of strata.
just doesn't quite cut for me, at least, not without a Creator behind it. Admittedly, I'm not a scientist, but I don't understand how something, (starting off with the gases and dust, as the foundation for the universe), can come from a void. I've never heard a satisfactory answer as to where these building blocks came from, in the first place. So, I think my belief in a Creator is just as good an explaination as any.
I don't particularly have a problem with millions and billions of years being involved. I just happen to believe that Someone had a hand in it.
