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Old 08-13-2019, 03:58 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,385 posts, read 7,106,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
No Sir! It is for YOU to present the verifiable evidence for your claim, not for us to go looking for it. If, as you claim, all the evidence is out there then you would have been only too quick to produce it. The fact that you not only don't produce it, but tell us to go and look for it ourselves, demonstrates that it is not out there.
Jesus fulfilled so many Old Testament prophecies that the odds it was all just a coincidence are extremely remote: like 1 in 10^17 or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. https://christinprophecy.org/article...he-scriptures/ There were many (over 500) eyewitnesses to His resurrection, and His apostles were willing to die for the risen Jesus they knew they saw, refusing to renounce their testimonies.

We know that God must exist because the universe requires a first cause. The idea that it all came from nothing is preposterous. If there ever was nothing, there could never be anything. Everyone must agree that something must have the property of aseity, or self-existence. We know from the laws of thermodynamics that the universe itself cannot be self-existent. We can also see from the obvious design that there must have been a Designer. That Designer - i.e., God - has the characteristic of aseity. He is the uncaused first cause.

Last edited by snj90; 08-13-2019 at 04:29 PM..
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
23,262 posts, read 10,654,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Jesus fulfilled so many Old Testament prophecies that the odds it was all just a coincidence are extremely remote: like 1 in 10^17. https://christinprophecy.org/article...he-scriptures/ There were many (over 500) eyewitnesses to His resurrection, and His apostles were willing to die for the risen Jesus they knew they saw, refusing to renounce their testimonies.

We know that God must exist because the universe requires a first cause. The idea that it all came from nothing is preposterous. If there ever was nothing, there could never be anything. Everyone must agree that something must have the property of aseity, or self-existence. We know from the laws of thermodynamics that the universe itself cannot be self-existent. We can also see from the obvious design that there must have been a Designer. That Designer - i.e., God - has the characteristic of aseity. He is the uncaused first cause.
1. Name those witnesses, please.

2. "We" do not know that. You think it.

3. Everyone does not agree with that.

You have a tremendous (in a bad sense) ego to think that everyone agrees with your point of view.
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Old 08-13-2019, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Ohio
20,171 posts, read 14,375,337 times
Reputation: 16364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41 View Post
One of the things that many people cannot get their head around, is a punishment that lasts FOREVER.
Life imprisonment and executions are punishments that last forever.

Aside from that, what people cannot get their head around is that Hell is a concept imagined by the Greeks.

Earlier civilizations knew the Earth was a sphere that orbited the Sun. They had an equator. Not only did they have an equator, they also created the Tropic of Cancer (30N Latitude) and the Tropic of Capricorn (30S Latitude).

For those not mathematically inclined, that's 60 or 1/3rd of 180 because 3 * 6 = 18, right?

That 60 band was called the Way of An and it had the 12 Constellations you know and love.

But, it wasn't the only band. From 30N Latitude to 0N Latitude (a total of 60) was the Way of Enlil and that had 12 constellations, too, but you probably aren't familiar with those.

From 30S to 0S (a total of 60) was the Way of Enki and there were 12 constellations there, too, and you're probably not familiar with those, either, except perhaps for the Constellation Hydra (the serpent monster since Enki was a serpent god).

Unfortunately, Sumer was destroyed, and then Akkad, and the Hittites were wiped out by Gomer -- that would be you, so, yes, Jesus is going to wipe the United States, Canada and Britain off the face of the Earth when he comes back -- and then the Amorites (the people scholars erroneously call Babylonians) and then the Assyrians and then a different group recreates the Babylonian Empire and Egypt is turmoil and so is Canaan.

So, knowledge got lost and distorted and the knowledge that the Earth is a sphere that orbits the Sun gets lost, too.

Around 600 BCE the later Greeks about. Over the centuries they develop this philosophy that you can learn everything you need to know from the 5 empirical senses.

Using their 5 empirical senses, the later Greeks came to believe Earth was a circular disk floating in space with the Sun orbiting it.

That's all wrong, of course, but what'd you expect?

There's a Greek in the Babylonian Court named Berossus. He wasn't the only Greek living there. There were others before him, but we know Berossus, because he wrote a history. His history did not survive, but Greek and Roman historians quote it, so we know it existed at least through the 2nd Century CE and that it had at least four books, because Book IV is quoted by Greek and Roman historians.

There was an Aramaic word the Greeks didn't know how to translate, because it didn't make sense them.

That word was "abzu" in Aramaic and Akkadian, also "zuab" in Akkadian and rendered as "ab.zu" or "zu.ab" in Sumerian.

It means "down under" as in down under the equator.

Don't you call Australia "the land down under?" Well, same thing here, except the land down under wasn't Australia, it was the modern countries of South Africa, Namibia and Zaire.

Except the Greeks don't know anything about an equator or about a spherical Earth and they come up with the mistaken belief that "down under" means under the Earth.

Hence: "underworld"

Then Greeks imagine up a whole bunch of demons and devils that live there in the "underworld" and that's how Hell was invented.

Then christians ran with it using all kinds of propaganda, disinformation and misinformation.

There's no such thing as "Satan" and it never appears anywhere in the Old Testament.

If you don't believe, just read:

Job 1:6 And he was the day and they are coming sons of the gods to station themselves on Yahweh and he is coming moreover the adversary in the midst of them (7) and he is saying Yahweh to the adversary from where you are coming and he is answering the adversary Yahweh and he is saying from to go to and fro of/in the earth and from to walk of/in her (8) and he is saying Yahweh to the adversary you placed heart of you on servant of me Job that there is no like him in the earth man flawless and upright fearing of the gods and withdrawing from evil (9) and he is answering the adversary Yahweh and he is saying gratuitously he fears Job the gods.

Do you see "Satan" anywhere? Nope.

If you're reading a bible and you see "Satan" you're reading propaganda and disinformation.

Unfortunately, too, many scholars employ anachronisms.

For centuries, German, French, British and American scholars have incorrectly applied the term "abzu."

When they're reading a Mesopotamian text and see "Nergal's domain is the abzu" they write "Nergal is the god of the underworld."

That's wrong. The correct translation is "Nergal's domain is South Africa, Namibia and Zaire."

Around 1996, armed with an avalanche of evidence, some scholars tried to correct the grotesque error made by the Greeks, but got fierce resistance by phihellenes (Greek-Firsters) and christians who are dumb enough to believe Hell is real, and the best they could do is reach a compromise.

The "correct" translation of abzu is now "netherworld" instead of "underworld" but some Mustache Pete scholars refuse to budge and insist on incorrectly translating it as "underworld."

While "netherworld" is a helluva lot better than "underworld" (no pun intended) it's still wrong.

I can only hope for the day when scholars get their act together and translate it correctly.

Anyway, anyone who actually believes there is a Hell is misguided, because it doesn't exist and never existed.
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Old 08-13-2019, 06:20 PM
Status: "I care about your eternity. Sorry." (set 15 days ago)
 
253 posts, read 33,265 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Jesus fulfilled so many Old Testament prophecies that the odds it was all just a coincidence are extremely remote: like 1 in 10^17 or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. https://christinprophecy.org/article...he-scriptures/ There were many (over 500) eyewitnesses to His resurrection, and His apostles were willing to die for the risen Jesus they knew they saw, refusing to renounce their testimonies.

We know that God must exist because the universe requires a first cause. The idea that it all came from nothing is preposterous. If there ever was nothing, there could never be anything. Everyone must agree that something must have the property of aseity, or self-existence. We know from the laws of thermodynamics that the universe itself cannot be self-existent. We can also see from the obvious design that there must have been a Designer. That Designer - i.e., God - has the characteristic of aseity. He is the uncaused first cause.

Hi snj. That's a good concise summary of points. Thanks for the link.

You reminded me of a great YouTube video I'd like to share with you. It's an hour long, but it's worth a watch if you're interested in this topic...
The Accuracy of Bible Prophecy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXqbTZZYNak
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Germany
5,382 posts, read 1,014,127 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Jesus fulfilled so many Old Testament prophecies that the odds it was all just a coincidence are extremely remote: like 1 in 10^17 or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. https://christinprophecy.org/article...he-scriptures/
Which is just evidence of how much the story of Jesus was invented out of the OT. Thank you for admitting just how much of a myth, gospel Jesus is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
There were many (over 500) eyewitnesses to His resurrection,
In visions (opthe). And the 500 may be a correction for at Pentecost. And Act describes the Pentecost vision as a people seeing lights, not a resurrected Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
and His apostles were willing to die for the risen Jesus they knew they saw, refusing to renounce their testimonies.
Not once do any of the accounts of the many deaths of the disciples say they did for their believe in Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
We know that God must exist because the universe requires a first cause.
And that first cause can not be an impossible God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
The idea that it all came from nothing is preposterous. If there ever was nothing, there could never be anything.
You have just refuted all of the Abrahamic religions, including yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Everyone must agree that something must have the property of aseity, or self-existence.
So no god is required. Keep going, you are doing a fantastic job of showing just how wrong you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
We know from the laws of thermodynamics that the universe itself cannot be self-existent.
No one but straw man manufacturers are arguing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
We can also see from the obvious design that there must have been a Designer.
There is no design. That is why people suffer from back problems, evolution, not design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
That Designer - i.e., God - has the characteristic of aseity. He is the uncaused first cause.
Which is true of all creator gods, and non-intelligent uncaused first causes.
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:24 AM
 
Location: Germany
5,382 posts, read 1,014,127 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew View Post
Hi snj. That's a good concise summary of points. Thanks for the link.

You reminded me of a great YouTube video I'd like to share with you. It's an hour long, but it's worth a watch if you're interested in this topic...
The Accuracy of Bible Prophecy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXqbTZZYNak
Either Jesus fulfilled prophecy, or he was invented out of the OT.

The more evidence you have for 'prophecy' also means more evidence for invention.

I would argue that you and snj have just argued at least 99.999% of gospel Jesus was invented.
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,455 posts, read 10,439,642 times
Reputation: 2637
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Jesus fulfilled so many Old Testament prophecies that the odds it was all just a coincidence are extremely remote: like 1 in 10^17 or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000.
...and the only evidence that your Jesus fulfilled OT prophecies is the NT telling us that he fulfilled OT prophecies. The Bible says that it was going to happen and the Bible confirms that it did. LOL! Are you so blind that you don't even see the circular reasoning in that? How about the authors of the NT knowing the OT prophecies for a Messiah and writing the NT in such a way to make it appear that your Jesus was the prophesied Messiah, by having him fulfil the prophecies? Easy isn't it?

Quote:
There were many (over 500) eyewitnesses to His resurrection,...
According to the Bible. More of your circular reasoning. ..using the Bible to prove the Bible.

Quote:
...and His apostles were willing to die for the risen Jesus they knew they saw, refusing to renounce their testimonies.
Ah! The old "They wouldn't have died for a lie'' gambit. No they would not have died for something that they believed was a lie...but they didn't think it was a lie did they. They thought it was true. We could add that Muslims wouldn't blow their heads off for a lie and therefore Islam is true. The followers of the Heaven's Gate sect wouldn't have died for a lie so Jesus must really have been waiting for them in a spaceship. The followers of David Koresh surely wouldn't have died for a lie would they...so Koresh really must have Jesus returned. Do you get it yet? Of course people die for things they think are true but are not. They always have and always will.

To add to that, the only source for the apostles even existing is the Bible. Add again the fact that, if they did exist and died for there beliefs, you have no evidence that they died as martyrs. For all we know they may not have even been given the choice of 'Renounce Jesus or die'. Maybe they were killed as a matter of course. Think about it.

Quote:
We know that God must exist because the universe requires a first cause.
How about one of the hundreds of other creator gods from other religions being the first cause?

Quote:
The idea that it all came from nothing is preposterous.
It is only Christianity that say that something came from nothing. "In the beginning, God created Heaven and Earth..."From what...nothing?

Quote:
If there ever was nothing, there could never be anything.
Can you show, with supporting evidence, that there was ever a time when there was "Nothing"? We can only hypothesis how our present universe came into being based on the verifiable evidence that we see. What we don't know is what was there before. It could be that the universe has always existed in some form or other. How about...'The Universe exists. It has always existed in some form or other. Present you argument against that.

Quote:
We know from the laws of thermodynamics that the universe itself cannot be self-existent.
It might be an idea to actually educate yourself in the Laws before making such a statement. Please tell us how you come to the conclusion that the LoT says that.

Quote:
We can also see from the obvious design that there must have been a Designer.
If your god designed the human body, he made an abysmally poor job of it.

Last edited by Rafius; 08-14-2019 at 01:08 AM..
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Old 08-14-2019, 03:49 AM
 
39,883 posts, read 11,154,715 times
Reputation: 5155
Cracking post Raffs. I don't need to add much but - yes, snj just trotted out the whiskery old apologetics...Jesus fulfilled prophecy (rather, Jesus' story was adapted to fit the prophecies) appeal to first cause and 'design' (which even if it was valid, requires a Leap of faith to get to Christianity) and...what was it... Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius...? Ah no 'Disciples would not die for a lie'. It's only a Christian claim that they died for anything. In other words, the same old debunked rubbish.
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Old 08-15-2019, 12:02 AM
 
Location: Germany
5,382 posts, read 1,014,127 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
In fact yes.



You may want to either read the German or English version:


https://comein2findout.wordpress.com...it-einschlich/


ALEXANDER THOMSON: Whence "Eternity"?


Keep in my mind how trivially we use "ewig" in German, maybe in colloquial language the word might have preserved its original meaning. Latin "aeternum" hasn't always meant endless too.
Thank you, I will read it later.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:52 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,732 posts, read 1,813,888 times
Reputation: 916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Thank you, I will read it later.

If you're into the topic, this is an even more detailed approach:


https://books.google.de/books?id=l-S...page&q&f=false


The section about Philo is interesting, since his idea of aion is more sophisticated than the use of the word in the Septuagint and deals with aion in relation to God.
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