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Old 08-11-2019, 02:46 PM
 
12,918 posts, read 16,854,254 times
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Moderators, could this thread be closed now?
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:53 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,662 posts, read 15,654,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Moderators, could this thread be closed now?
We aren't allowed to close threads without a reason.
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Old 08-11-2019, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,152,432 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
If you are trying to say that Eve was not associated with original sin, then I am speechless.
There is no original sin.

That's just something people want you to believe.

You don't even understand the story and you don't have the moral courage to research it.

Every single pre-Abrahamic story in Genesis is Sumerian in origin, not Hebrew.

The story of the creation of the Heavens & Earth is Sumerian in origin. The Hebrews merely copied it and did a poor job doing so.

The story of the creation of man is Sumerian in origin. The Hebrews merely copied it and did a poor job doing so.

The story of the Garden of Eden is Sumerian in origin. The Hebrews did a poor job copying the story.

The story of the Division of Earth is Sumerian in origin. The Hebrews did a really bad job of copying that.

The story of the Tower of Babel is Sumerian in origin. The Hebrews copied it poorly.

The story of the Deluge is Sumerian in origin. The Hebrews did a poor job copying that story.

The story of Sodom & Gomorrah is Sumerian in origin. The Hebrews did a poor job copying that story, too.

The Sumerian story of the creation of humans is rich and detailed, not to mention it explains why humans were created.

The gods were angry that they had to toil, and they wanted to know if an animal could be trained to do their work for them. Enki says, the animal you speak of exists -- and the text literally says -- all we have to do is bind the image of the gods on it.

Sound familiar? It should. The unholy Hebrew scribe wrote "Let us create man in our image and our likeness."

The unholy Hebrew scribe got that part sort of right. It conveys the meaning well enough.

Then Enki and his son Ningishiddza who are both serpent gods whose symbol was the caduceus -- two snakes intertwined on a cross -- and that's the key here -- along with Enki's half-sister Ninhursag go to work to create humans. They have a lot of failures before they get it right and the Sumerian text details those failures.

In fact, the Sumerian story is almost half as long as Genesis, so that should tell you how much the unholy Hebrew scribes omitted and the names of Enki, Ningishiddza and Ninhursag were changed to the generic gods plural: elohim.

Now comes the story of the Garden of the E.din....yeah, that's a Sumerian word, not a Hebrew word, because the Sumerians wrote it, not the Hebrews.

Enki's half-brother is Enlil, what you would call a "storm god." Enlil hates humans.

If you don't understand that, then you won't understand anything else and nobody can help you.

Humans are suffering, although the text does not explain why. Enki wants to give humans knowledge, because apparently knowledge will end human suffering.

Enlil is opposed to the idea, because Enlil hates humans.

Enki the serpent god goes behind Enlil's back and gives humans knowledge anyway.

When the Hebrews read that story, they came away with a different take on things.

If 12 people read A Good Man is Hard to Find by Flannery O'Connor, all 12 people would have a different take on the story and different ideas because of their culture, mores, values and belief systems.

That's how people are. The Hebrews are people, so why would they be any different?

Even among Hebrews different Hebrews had different ideas.

One man's view might be that knowledge alleviates suffering, but another man's view is that knowledge is sinful.

Why might that man come to believe that?

Enlil was El in the Ugarit pantheon that the Hebrews worshiped.

At the time that man copied the story, the Hebrews were henotheists and his sympathies might have lied with El and he would recognize Yam as Enki the serpent god or perhaps Ningishiddza as Lothan the serpent god.

If you don't understand that, you can never understand the Deluge story.

When Enki, Marduk, Ningishiddza and Nergal tell Enlil about the impending doom to befall Earth, Enlil calls a meeting of the gods and swears them all to an oath of secrecy not to tell the humans about this impending doom which will apparently wipe out humans.

Why?

Because Enlil hates humans.

It's not Nuclear Physics.

Like the other stories, the Sumerian story of the Deluge is rich and detailed.

Once again, Enki goes behind Enlil's back and using trickery to avoid violating his oath of secrecy, tells Ziusurda where to find plans to build a submersible vessel, the name of the man who can build it and the name of the man who can pilot the vessel.

The Sumerian text says the gods watched in horror as the Deluge unfolded, and it only lasted 3-5 days.
The gods cried. Even Enlil wept.

Later, as Enlil is walking around he smells food cooking and realizes some humans survived and he's elated. He also realizes Enki tricked him once again, but Enlil isn't mad at Enki. Enlil tells Ziursuda they will never let something like this happen again, and a rainbow appears and everyone cries tears of joy and there's a group hug and all is well.

As you can see, the Hebrews omitted a great deal of the story.

The also changed it to a morality play.

If I had to guess I'd say that was the devious Jeremiah and Hilkiah, because they were Yahweh fanatics and everyone either did good in the eyes of Yahweh or did evil in the eyes of Yahweh and they would have change the story from what appears to be a celestial phenomenon beyond anyone's control to one Yahweh did it because everyone is evil.

I'm still hoping that one day you muster up the moral courage to investigate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
This forum is like a garbage dump.
Naturally, since you got stomped on.
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Old 08-11-2019, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,152,432 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Just curious as to where you got your information that Nergal was NOT a god of the underworld. Here’s the reference I have:

Ancient Mesopotamian Gods and Goddesses - Nergal (god)

Have you a different scholarly source?
Look, you're making this much harder than it has to be.

Let's start simple, shall we?

Industries have associations and those associations have working groups.

Two examples would be the TIA and the CTIA which are the Telecommunications Industry Association and the Cellular Telephone Industry Association.

Why?

Well, those associations promote their industry; educate the general public; attract people to the field of communications; and, why, yes, lobby Congress and federal agencies for legislation beneficial to their industry.

Those associations have working groups and once such working group is the Architecture Working Group.

So, they're building houses? No, architecture refers to the printed wire boards (PWBs) in your cell phone.

Why would you want a working group? In a word: Harmony.

The goal is to harmonize the 24+ makers of cell phones so that they are all on the same sheet of music.

It's better for you, better for me. Why? Because it reduces costs.

If everyone is doing their own thing and on a different sheet of music then a manufacturer of PWBs has to have one assembly line for each of the 24+ different cell phone manufacturers which means all the competitors have to have one assembly line for each of the 24+ different cell phone manufacturers.

That gets expensive because it costs a lot.

But, if we harmonize the architecture then we make it universal which means a PWB can be used in any of the 24+ cell phones.

That makes it cheaper for you, and cheaper for me.

Get it?

Let's take that one step further: The IAU.

The International Astronomers Union promotes astronomy; educates the general public about astronomy; attracts people to the field of astronomy; and, why, yes, they lobby Congress for funding like the Cassini probe at astronomical prices.

They have working groups, too. They have working groups for every planet, the Sun, moons, the Moon, the solar system as a whole, the Oort Cloud, planetoids, asteroids, comets and so on.

What do they do? They harmonize.

Specifically, they work to harmonize definitions and categories and things.

Can you imagine if every astronomer had their own set of definitions?

Reading scholarly papers would be a freaking nightmare. Nobody would understand what anyone is saying and you cannot transmit knowledge properly if no one knows what anyone's talking about.

They define the meanings of planet, minor planet, planetoid, moon, moonlet, asteroid and so on.

Some astronomers thought Pluto was not a planet and so they held a debate and voted to reclassify Pluto as another celestial object.

Get it?

Let's take that one step further: Asiatic Studies.

Asiatic is a misnomer. It doesn't mean Chinese. It's alleged the Hyksos who were in Egypt were "Asiatic peoples."

Asiatic means Asia Minor.

That would be Mesopotamia and environs.

They do the same thing everyone else does: promote the field; educate the general public; attract people into Asiatic Studies; and, why, yes, they lobby governments, universities and private groups for funding to do archaeological research.

They have working groups, too, and their function is to harmonize definitions and categories and things so that everyone is on the same sheet of music.

Over time, evidence amasses that provide irrefutable proof the Sumerians, and by extension the civilizations their knowledge was transmitted like the Akkadians, Mari, Nuzi, Mitanni, Cassites (the biblical Kush the unholy Hebrew scribes botched), Hittites, Hurrians, Canaanites et al knew the Earth was a sphere.

There are cuneiform tablets with mathematical tables. Lots of tablets. They predicted solar and lunar eclipses and the motions of the planets, including their retrograde and direct motions. Those tables can only be derived mathematically if, and only if, you believe the Earth is a sphere.

There's also about half a dozen tablets that show the Precession of the Equinox, and you have to believe the Earth is a sphere for that.

The interesting thing is all the tablets start with the Constellation Pisces. That was ~27,000 years ago.

A couple of tablets show the dates of the Ages, and one is annotated. That one says the Deluge happened in the Age of Leo --- about 12,000 years ago -- and that a sphinx was built in the land of Magan (Egypt) and then it's broken.

There is a sphinx in Egypt. Scholars claim it was erected 4,000 years ago, but the Sumerians say 12,000 years ago. Scholars say the face of the sphinx has been altered, while Sumerians say it was a lion, you know, for the Age of Leo. Since sphinx were usually built in pairs, there's probably another one out there if not on the Saudi Peninsula then in India, since Arratta was Ianna's domain.

It begs the question, "Why Pisces?"

What, exactly, were humans doing 27,000 years ago?

Did people already organize the Constellations and were recording the phenomenon of the Precession of the Equinox 27,000 years ago?

Because if that's the case, then everything we know about ancient history is wrong.

Did the Sumerians discover the phenomenon and then calculate backwards?

That's certainly a possibility, but it still begs the question, "Why Pisces?"

I mean if you can calculate backwards, why not calculate back 120,000 years?

There's a reason the Sumerians chose Pisces, and it would behoove us to find out why.

And, then we have the Constellations themselves. The Way of An, the 12 Constellations that we know and love is a no-brainer.

The 12 Constellations that make up the Way of Enlil and which few people know is hardly a shocker, either.

But, the 12 Constellations that make up the Way of Enki is a different story.

Some of the stars that make up the 12 Constellations in the Way of Enki cannot be seen from Sumer/Iraq.

Yeah, it's that spherical Earth thing.

The only way you can see those stars is to be south of 30°S Latitude. That means walked or rode a camel through Africa or sailed a ship south of that point and charted the stars.

But, that ain't the half of it.

Some of those stars are fixed stars, meaning they do not rise or set.

The only way you could possibly see them, is to be in southern Africa or Antarctica.

It's not unlike the Aleuts and Eskimos and others who live in Arctic Circle or high latitudes. From where I am, there are stars the Aleuts and Eskimos can never see, because of their location, and they certainly can't see stars in the Antarctic Circle.

And, then there was more evidence. A text says "he made moor the ships of Magan [Egypt] and the ships of Abzu with gold."

It makes sense a Sumerian king would trade with Egypt, but does it make sense a Sumerian king would send a ship to Hell and bring back gold?

On top of that gods came and went freely from the Abzu and so did garden-variety everyday people, including Sumerian kings, priests, their representatives and others.

And from the physical descriptions in texts, it was painfully obvious the Abzu was a real physical earthly place and that place is modern-day Zaire.

So, armed with an avalanche of evidence, scholars tried to persuade other scholars to change the definition of Abzu from "underworld" to its correct true and accurate definition of "land down under" or "down under."

The phihellenes -- the Greek Firsters -- refused to budge and will go to their graves before they ever dare admit the possibility that the Greeks made in an error in translation.

Then you have christians who are adamant that Hell exists.

After a fierce debate, a compromise was reached: from this point forward, Abzu will be translated as "netherworld" instead of the erroneous "underworld."

Now that you know that, if you see an idiotic remark that Nergal is the god of the underworld or any mention of an underworld, you can draw one of four conclusions:

1) the text was published before 1996 when the definition of Abzu was changed from "underworld" to "netherworld"; or

2) the text was written by a Greek Firster who would rather die than ever admit the Greeks could have made an error in translation; or

3) the text was written by a christian who is dumb enough to believe the Hell imagined up by the Greeks based on an erroneous translation is real; or

4) the text was written by someone who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.

Nergal is not the god of the underworld.

Nergal's domain is the Abzu and the Abzu is modern-day South Africa, Zaire and Nambia.

According to Sumerian texts, that's where Nergal lived, worked and played and that's where the solunar observatory was located that allowed Nergal to discover the impending doom leading to the Deluge.

The Sumerians also said that Nergal using his solunar observatory noted that whatever caused the Deluge also disturbed stellar time resulting in a delay in the transition from the Age of Taurus to the Age of Aries.

Marduk is supposed to rule in the Age of Aries and he's very, very angry that there will be a delay.

That is why Nabu -- Marduk's son -- had his armies in Sodom and Gomorrah.

And, that is why Nergal and Ninurta destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah: to wipe out Nabu's armies so Marduk can't get power.

The Hebrew version of the Sumerian story that Yahweh destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because people are strange doesn't make any sense, but then the Hebrews didn't make much sense anyway.
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:10 PM
 
10,020 posts, read 4,955,378 times
Reputation: 754
Mircea-
Seems as if you have never studied the Bible but rather the teachings of men outside of Scripture.
We are in the last days of badness on Earth as mentioned at 2nd Timothy 3:1-5,13.
So, you are going to be in for quite a surprise when the powers that be will be saying, "Peace and Security...." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
-1st Thess. 5:2-3.
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,152,432 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Moderators, could this thread be closed now?
Why?

After losing are you going to sit around dejectedly waiting for your god to annihilate you?

Have fun Gomer. Enjoy your fire and brimstone.
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,708,541 times
Reputation: 4674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Look, you're making this much harder than it has to be.

Let's start simple, shall we?

Industries have associations and those associations have working groups.

Two examples would be the TIA and the CTIA which are the Telecommunications Industry Association and the Cellular Telephone Industry Association.

Why?

Well, those associations promote their industry; educate the general public; attract people to the field of communications; and, why, yes, lobby Congress and federal agencies for legislation beneficial to their industry.

Those associations have working groups and once such working group is the Architecture Working Group.

So, they're building houses? No, architecture refers to the printed wire boards (PWBs) in your cell phone.

Why would you want a working group? In a word: Harmony.

The goal is to harmonize the 24+ makers of cell phones so that they are all on the same sheet of music.

It's better for you, better for me. Why? Because it reduces costs.

If everyone is doing their own thing and on a different sheet of music then a manufacturer of PWBs has to have one assembly line for each of the 24+ different cell phone manufacturers which means all the competitors have to have one assembly line for each of the 24+ different cell phone manufacturers.

That gets expensive because it costs a lot.

But, if we harmonize the architecture then we make it universal which means a PWB can be used in any of the 24+ cell phones.

That makes it cheaper for you, and cheaper for me.

Get it?

Let's take that one step further: The IAU.

The International Astronomers Union promotes astronomy; educates the general public about astronomy; attracts people to the field of astronomy; and, why, yes, they lobby Congress for funding like the Cassini probe at astronomical prices.

They have working groups, too. They have working groups for every planet, the Sun, moons, the Moon, the solar system as a whole, the Oort Cloud, planetoids, asteroids, comets and so on.

What do they do? They harmonize.

Specifically, they work to harmonize definitions and categories and things.

Can you imagine if every astronomer had their own set of definitions?

Reading scholarly papers would be a freaking nightmare. Nobody would understand what anyone is saying and you cannot transmit knowledge properly if no one knows what anyone's talking about.

They define the meanings of planet, minor planet, planetoid, moon, moonlet, asteroid and so on.

Some astronomers thought Pluto was not a planet and so they held a debate and voted to reclassify Pluto as another celestial object.

Get it?

Let's take that one step further: Asiatic Studies.

Asiatic is a misnomer. It doesn't mean Chinese. It's alleged the Hyksos who were in Egypt were "Asiatic peoples."

Asiatic means Asia Minor.

That would be Mesopotamia and environs.

They do the same thing everyone else does: promote the field; educate the general public; attract people into Asiatic Studies; and, why, yes, they lobby governments, universities and private groups for funding to do archaeological research.

They have working groups, too, and their function is to harmonize definitions and categories and things so that everyone is on the same sheet of music.

Over time, evidence amasses that provide irrefutable proof the Sumerians, and by extension the civilizations their knowledge was transmitted like the Akkadians, Mari, Nuzi, Mitanni, Cassites (the biblical Kush the unholy Hebrew scribes botched), Hittites, Hurrians, Canaanites et al knew the Earth was a sphere.

There are cuneiform tablets with mathematical tables. Lots of tablets. They predicted solar and lunar eclipses and the motions of the planets, including their retrograde and direct motions. Those tables can only be derived mathematically if, and only if, you believe the Earth is a sphere.

There's also about half a dozen tablets that show the Precession of the Equinox, and you have to believe the Earth is a sphere for that.

The interesting thing is all the tablets start with the Constellation Pisces. That was ~27,000 years ago.

A couple of tablets show the dates of the Ages, and one is annotated. That one says the Deluge happened in the Age of Leo --- about 12,000 years ago -- and that a sphinx was built in the land of Magan (Egypt) and then it's broken.

There is a sphinx in Egypt. Scholars claim it was erected 4,000 years ago, but the Sumerians say 12,000 years ago. Scholars say the face of the sphinx has been altered, while Sumerians say it was a lion, you know, for the Age of Leo. Since sphinx were usually built in pairs, there's probably another one out there if not on the Saudi Peninsula then in India, since Arratta was Ianna's domain.

It begs the question, "Why Pisces?"

What, exactly, were humans doing 27,000 years ago?

Did people already organize the Constellations and were recording the phenomenon of the Precession of the Equinox 27,000 years ago?

Because if that's the case, then everything we know about ancient history is wrong.

Did the Sumerians discover the phenomenon and then calculate backwards?

That's certainly a possibility, but it still begs the question, "Why Pisces?"

I mean if you can calculate backwards, why not calculate back 120,000 years?

There's a reason the Sumerians chose Pisces, and it would behoove us to find out why.

And, then we have the Constellations themselves. The Way of An, the 12 Constellations that we know and love is a no-brainer.

The 12 Constellations that make up the Way of Enlil and which few people know is hardly a shocker, either.

But, the 12 Constellations that make up the Way of Enki is a different story.

Some of the stars that make up the 12 Constellations in the Way of Enki cannot be seen from Sumer/Iraq.

Yeah, it's that spherical Earth thing.

The only way you can see those stars is to be south of 30°S Latitude. That means walked or rode a camel through Africa or sailed a ship south of that point and charted the stars.

But, that ain't the half of it.

Some of those stars are fixed stars, meaning they do not rise or set.

The only way you could possibly see them, is to be in southern Africa or Antarctica.

It's not unlike the Aleuts and Eskimos and others who live in Arctic Circle or high latitudes. From where I am, there are stars the Aleuts and Eskimos can never see, because of their location, and they certainly can't see stars in the Antarctic Circle.

And, then there was more evidence. A text says "he made moor the ships of Magan [Egypt] and the ships of Abzu with gold."

It makes sense a Sumerian king would trade with Egypt, but does it make sense a Sumerian king would send a ship to Hell and bring back gold?

On top of that gods came and went freely from the Abzu and so did garden-variety everyday people, including Sumerian kings, priests, their representatives and others.

And from the physical descriptions in texts, it was painfully obvious the Abzu was a real physical earthly place and that place is modern-day Zaire.

So, armed with an avalanche of evidence, scholars tried to persuade other scholars to change the definition of Abzu from "underworld" to its correct true and accurate definition of "land down under" or "down under."

The phihellenes -- the Greek Firsters -- refused to budge and will go to their graves before they ever dare admit the possibility that the Greeks made in an error in translation.

Then you have christians who are adamant that Hell exists.

After a fierce debate, a compromise was reached: from this point forward, Abzu will be translated as "netherworld" instead of the erroneous "underworld."

Now that you know that, if you see an idiotic remark that Nergal is the god of the underworld or any mention of an underworld, you can draw one of four conclusions:

1) the text was published before 1996 when the definition of Abzu was changed from "underworld" to "netherworld"; or

2) the text was written by a Greek Firster who would rather die than ever admit the Greeks could have made an error in translation; or

3) the text was written by a christian who is dumb enough to believe the Hell imagined up by the Greeks based on an erroneous translation is real; or

4) the text was written by someone who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.

Nergal is not the god of the underworld.

Nergal's domain is the Abzu and the Abzu is modern-day South Africa, Zaire and Nambia.

According to Sumerian texts, that's where Nergal lived, worked and played and that's where the solunar observatory was located that allowed Nergal to discover the impending doom leading to the Deluge.

The Sumerians also said that Nergal using his solunar observatory noted that whatever caused the Deluge also disturbed stellar time resulting in a delay in the transition from the Age of Taurus to the Age of Aries.

Marduk is supposed to rule in the Age of Aries and he's very, very angry that there will be a delay.

That is why Nabu -- Marduk's son -- had his armies in Sodom and Gomorrah.

And, that is why Nergal and Ninurta destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah: to wipe out Nabu's armies so Marduk can't get power.

The Hebrew version of the Sumerian story that Yahweh destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because people are strange doesn't make any sense, but then the Hebrews didn't make much sense anyway.
I'm just interested in the scholarly work from which you arrived at your conclusion. I know how to search works and grasp ideas expressed (unless it's quantum physics) and verify credentials.

What should anyone think if you haven't some sort of work to back your views? I don't care one whit for all the commentary you've provided, I'm just interested in finding out how anyone can come to your conclusion. Did someone write that Nergal was not a god of the underworld? Everything I've read from historians begs to differ. I'm not making anything harder, I'm asking for a link so I can do my own research.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-11-2019 at 11:25 PM..
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,708,541 times
Reputation: 4674
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
We aren't allowed to close threads without a reason.
I suspect he's tired of being seen as lumpheaded. The kind of shooting himself in the foot he does is par for what I've seen him post though I haven't had a lot of interaction with him. Jesus followers would also like to see it closed because we're tired of the mess he has produced over this "Eve brought sin into the world."

Not even the most right-wing conservative fundamentalists believe that. So he definitely isn't representing even a minuscule portion of American Christianity.
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Old 08-12-2019, 03:09 AM
 
Location: Florida
23,170 posts, read 26,179,590 times
Reputation: 27914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I suspect he's tired of being seen as lumpheaded. The kind of shooting himself in the foot he does is par for what I've seen him post though I haven't had a lot of interaction with him. Jesus followers would also like to see it closed because we're tired of the mess he has produced over this "Eve brought sin into the world."

Not even the most right-wing conservative fundamentalists believe that. So he definitely isn't representing even a minuscule portion of American Christianity.
Don't worry about it any possible association with him Warden.
I think we all know he is only representing himself.
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Old 08-12-2019, 03:19 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,086 posts, read 20,691,451 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I suspect he's tired of being seen as lumpheaded. The kind of shooting himself in the foot he does is par for what I've seen him post though I haven't had a lot of interaction with him. Jesus followers would also like to see it closed because we're tired of the mess he has produced over this "Eve brought sin into the world."

Not even the most right-wing conservative fundamentalists believe that. So he definitely isn't representing even a minuscule portion of American Christianity.
I think he's been trying to provoke us into a furious response (which he hasn't got ) to give him the excuse for a 'flounce'. So he's now trying to engineer a thread closure so that he can tell himself (at least) that that he could have 'won' if only he hadn't been prevented from responding.

Nobody is preventing from responding, but he has nothing left to respond with. It's a great shame as by he could have retained more credibility and even more Christianity to believe in than he has, if only he'd been willing to accept the evidence rather than stick with fundamentalist denial.

He could carry on with attempts to score irrelevant (and futile) points,
he could 'break' (doesn't often happen)
He could go silent and pop up on another thread a month later with the same arguments. My money's on the last.
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