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This is the only reason that the Bible has endured for so long. It contains truth that anyone can understand at any age. A person doesn't have to be an intellectual to understand it. In fact, it is a stumbling block to the proud and to intellectuals.
What do you think? If this reason is wrong and it does not contain the truth, then why has it endured for so long? Why is it the greatest selling book of all time?
(The responses will be revealing.)
One issue that I see commonly confused is this with respect to what qualifies as truth or worthy. What is the truth is NOT a function of oldest or largest or easiest to understand...
The criteria that determines what is truth should be much more for any person truly interested to establish what is truth and what is nonsense. What is worthy of our trust and faith and what is not.
There is so much in the Bible that is clearly NOT true, how it has endured for so long is truly a good question, and if answered correctly, we might all better understand the actual truth about all holy books in general.
A few assumptions perhaps worth considering for starters...
"Understand at any age?" Much of the Bible still doesn't make any sense to me...
"Endured for so long?" Which version? Which translation? According to whom?
"Stumbling block to the proud and to intellectuals?" Not a problem for the embarrassed and uneducated then?
"Greatest selling book of all time?" I can't count the number of times a Bible was offered to me free of charge, and I have a few copies. Not a one did I purchase, but why are books popular generally speaking?
The 30 Best-Selling Novels of All Time
Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes.
A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens.
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exuper.
Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone by J.K. Rowling.
And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie.
The Hobbit by J.R.R. ...
Dream of the Red Chamber by Cao Xueqin.
I notice Harry Potter is on this list, reminding me of good Christian friends of ours who wouldn't let their kids read Harry Potter, because of the "satanic nature" of Rowling's books. (An absolute favorite of our daughters). I think this is the sort of "stumbling block" that really makes you wonder...
One issue that I see commonly confused is this with respect to what qualifies as truth or worthy. What is the truth is NOT a function of oldest or largest or easiest to understand...
The criteria that determines what is truth should be much more for any person truly interested to establish what is truth and what is nonsense. What is worthy of our trust and faith and what is not.
There is so much in the Bible that is clearly NOT true, how it has endured for so long is truly a good question, and if answered correctly, we might all better understand the actual truth about all holy books in general.
A few assumptions perhaps worth considering for starters...
"Understand at any age?" Much of the Bible still doesn't make any sense to me...
"Endured for so long?" Which version? Which translation? According to whom?
"Stumbling block to the proud and to intellectuals?" Not a problem for the embarrassed and uneducated then?
If you are truly interested in making sense of something in the Bible that doesn't currently make sense to you, I will do my best to try to clarify. Pick something that might make a difference to you if you understood it better.
If you are truly interested in making sense of something in the Bible that doesn't currently make sense to you, I will do my best to try to clarify. Pick something that might make a difference to you if you understood it better.
This does not make sense to me. Please explain it.
According to common Christian doctrine (it is generally agreed by the overwhelming majority Christians that I have encountered to be true), that God is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing, including full foreknowledge of events of the future), and omnipresent (He exists everywhere).
Also according to common Christian doctrine, (because it's in the Bible), God created heaven and earth (Gen. 1:10), the beasts of the earth (Gen.1:24-25), and the first human, Adam (Gen. 1:27, Gen. 2:7). God also created a woman, to be called Eve (Gen.2: 22-23). Omnipotent God did these things purposefully, with his own hand. The man and the woman and each creature was created to be exactly as God intended them to be. Omnipotent God does not fail in His intentions (according to common Christian doctrine).
God placed Adam and Eve and all of the beasts that He had created with his own hand into a garden. Being omnipotent God got exactly the result He intended to get when He created each of them. God placed Adam and Eve and the serpent into the garden together. Being omniscient God knew with perfect certainty what would occur. When the expected outcome occurred, God condemned and punished both sides for being EXACTLY as they were created to be (gullible; subtil), and doing EXACTLY as He KNEW they would do. So who is the actual responsible party for the tragedy that occurred?
Let's consider this story rationally.
A father places two children and a poisonous snake into a garden. The children eventually die of snake bite. Who would normally bear the burden of responsibility? The children? The snake? Or the father? A human father might well plead that, since he did not know with perfect certainty that the children would be bitten, he was not to blame.
Omnipotent omniscient God however can make no such defence.
So the question becomes, is God ACTUALLY omnipotent? Or is He FALLIBLE? God is omnipotent according to the NT.
Rev.19
[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Is God ACTUALLY omniscient? To be omnipotent would necessarily require omniscience as well. While the Bible does not specifically state that God is omniscient, it does indicate God that God is omniscient.
Acts 15:
[18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Psalm 139:
[16]Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
Psalm 56:
[8]You have taken account of my wanderings; Put my tears in Your bottle. Are they not in Your book?
Psalm 40:
[7]Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
[8]I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart.
A God who is not omnipotent and omniscient would be prone to make mistakes. A God who is not omnipotent and omniscient would be prone to failing.
Is God prone to make mistakes and failing to achieve His intentions ?
According to the OT DOES make mistakes and fails to achieve His intentions?
[i]Genesis 6:
[5] And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
[6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
So who is the more confused, the omnipotent omniscient God who fails to achieve His intentions, or the confused believers who promote this self contradictory nonsense as revealed truth?
If you are truly interested in making sense of something in the Bible that doesn't currently make sense to you, I will do my best to try to clarify. Pick something that might make a difference to you if you understood it better.
Tired of Nonsense does a pretty good job of scratching the surface, and if you attempt to address his comment, I suspect you will be busy for awhile without any help from me (and I will be interested to see how you do address his comment)...
Meanwhile, I can offer something a little different that also proves challenging for me, and if anyone ever really did explain themselves convincingly in this regard, it might make a difference to me. Simply put, it's how anyone can distinguish how or why they are convinced about their religion and/or holy book given the billions of people on the planet who believe in a different religion and/or holy book just as devoutly and convincingly.
What makes ANY more worthy than the next when the "truth" in these regards depends entirely on who you ask; whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. IOWs how do you reconcile what you believe with all who believe otherwise, any differently than they do? If no differently (as it always seems to me), how are any to be considered any more worthy over the other?
At least in part, recognizing all the contrary beliefs is what helped me develop my Nine Truths with respect to what is universally true, what is not, and how we go about establishing that truth to whatever extent we are able.
If you are truly interested in making sense of something in the Bible that doesn't currently make sense to you, I will do my best to try to clarify. Pick something that might make a difference to you if you understood it better.
How can you do that when you, yourself, have not read the whole bible?
Hi LearnMe. I saw the Nine Truths you posted in the other thread. I'm happy to try to provide answers to biblical questions, but I'm just as happy to go through your list of truths, if you're looking for feedback on them. We would still be dealing with the question of how to determine truth (e.g. how to determine what religion(s) are 'true'). What say you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Tired of Nonsense does a pretty good job of scratching the surface, and if you attempt to address his comment, I suspect you will be busy for awhile without any help from me (and I will be interested to see how you do address his comment)...
Meanwhile, I can offer something a little different that also proves challenging for me, and if anyone ever really did explain themselves convincingly in this regard, it might make a difference to me. Simply put, it's how anyone can distinguish how or why they are convinced about their religion and/or holy book given the billions of people on the planet who believe in a different religion and/or holy book just as devoutly and convincingly.
What makes ANY more worthy than the next when the "truth" in these regards depends entirely on who you ask; whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. IOWs how do you reconcile what you believe with all who believe otherwise, any differently than they do? If no differently (as it always seems to me), how are any to be considered any more worthy over the other?
At least in part, recognizing all the contrary beliefs is what helped me develop my Nine Truths with respect to what is universally true, what is not, and how we go about establishing that truth to whatever extent we are able.
If you are truly interested in making sense of something in the Bible that doesn't currently make sense to you, I will do my best to try to clarify. Pick something that might make a difference to you if you understood it better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
How can you do that when you, yourself, have not read the whole bible?
Hi LearnMe. I saw the Nine Truths you posted in the other thread. I'm happy to try to provide answers to biblical questions, but I'm just as happy to go through your list of truths, if you're looking for feedback on them. We would still be dealing with the question of how to determine truth (e.g. how to determine what religion(s) are 'true'). What say you?
Hi there Iwas.
I would be delighted if you or anyone were wanting to explain to me your/their thoughts "good, bad or ugly" about my Nine Truths. Appreciated, because I have had other people become quite hostile about letting me know they would do no such thing. Not even read them!
See my "biblical question" above if you like as well, but either way you are absolutely correct about the ultimate question when it comes to establishing universal truth.
How?
There is certainly more than one answer and there are certainly some answers far better than others, if only we can better judge the criteria along these lines for starters. In part this too is what my Nine Truths attempts to address. Something like how a jury is called upon to arrive at a verdict, "beyond a reasonable doubt." Not always easy, but we all have a sense there is a correct verdict regardless all nonsense to the contrary and/or regardless how difficult it may be to arrive upon.
I've got to sign off now, but if you care to comment further, I will look forward to reading your further thoughts about any of this. I say yes. Thanks again.
Hi LearnMe. I saw the Nine Truths you posted in the other thread. I'm happy to try to provide answers to biblical questions, but I'm just as happy to go through your list of truths, if you're looking for feedback on them. We would still be dealing with the question of how to determine truth (e.g. how to determine what religion(s) are 'true'). What say you?
Rather than LearnMe's 9 truths, how about explaining ToN's question about the Eden and Flood scenario?
I'll leave my own Questions out as that's quite enough. Hint. First thing we do if you give a full and timely response is check the Creationist apologeetic sites to see whether it's been cut and pasted.
One issue that I see commonly confused is this with respect to what qualifies as truth or worthy. What is the truth is NOT a function of oldest or largest or easiest to understand...
The difference between religion and mythology is that government sanctions religion.
The reason christians practice the Nicean flavor is because government outlawed and banned Manichean Christianity, Nestorian Christianity, Coptic Christianity, Alexandrian Christianity and others, authorizing the murder of those who rejected the Nicean flavor.
And the only reason christians even exist is because Emperor Theodosius banned all religions in an edict issued in 382 CE.
If that doesn't happen, christianity today would be lumped in with all other mythologies and there wouldn't be any christians and the world would be a better place.
Then in 533 CE, Emperor Justinian makes John the Bishop of Rome the first pope and the chief persecutor of heretics.
The first thing Pope John does is consolidate power by exiling or murdering any clergy who do not subscribe to his position and support him.
Succeeding popes expand that power and the Reign of Terror until one finally crowns Charlemagne. Charlemagne needs that for legitimacy so there are no challenges to his authority and then he returns the favor by murdering anyone who doesn't want to be christian and it snowballs from there.
Christianity survives only because the greater and lesser nobles need the support of popes and the popes need the support of the greater and lesser nobles to maintain power.
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