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Old 08-06-2019, 01:06 PM
 
13,149 posts, read 13,744,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Stop dodging. Prove it is a choice by choosing to believe something you do NOT currently believe. If you cannot then it is NOT a choice.
see if you can recognize and distinguish between the elements involved. it's like you have them garbled together which results in what for me is incoherent.

"ability to choose" = the framework of free choice on this planet [we choose our career, our clothes, our music]
"what we choose" = the choice we make [which job, which clothes, what music]
"reasons we have" = why we make the choice we do [skills, money, availability, accessibility, aesthetics, joy]

"belief" = something we choose that we consider to be true based on the reasons we have that are important to us

there is nothing to dodge. the statement in the post above is incoherent to me, in the same way as if you said "see you won't wear a bikini to the hospital you work at therefore you don't have free choice about what to wear to work." the logic in your post shown above is flawed in that way.

you have reasons for believing what you do. that are compelling reasons for you. those reasons are why you set down one belief and picked up a different belief. you edited your belief. you re-wrote it. that's what people do, based on their learning or information or experience or desires or whatever it is they are influenced by that is valid for them. but it's still a choice. no one is doing it for you or to you or coercing you. you are choosing.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-06-2019 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:13 PM
 
40,412 posts, read 26,927,749 times
Reputation: 6077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
see if you can recognize and distinguish between the elements involved. it's like you have them garbled together which results in what for me is incoherent.

"ability to choose" = the framework of free choice on this planet [we choose our career, our clothes, our music]
"what we choose" = the choice we make [which job, which clothes, what music]
"reasons we have" = why we make the choice we do [skills, money, availability, accessibility, aesthetics, joy]

"belief" = something we choose that we consider to be true based on the reasons we have that are important to us

there is nothing to dodge. the statement in the post above is incoherent to me, in the same way as if you said "see you won't wear a bikini to the hospital you work at therefore you don't have free choice about what to wear to work." the logic in your post shown above is flawed in that way.

you have reasons for believing what you do. that are compelling reasons for you. those reasons are why you set down one belief and picked up a different belief. you edited your belief. you re-wrote it. that's what people do, based on their learning or information or experience or desires or whatever it is they are influenced by that is valid for them. but it's still a choice. no one is doing it for you or to you or coercing you. you are choosing.
What you fail to acknowledge is that we have choices about things that we don't really have a vested interest in, what Miss H. called "nonchalant beliefs." There are things so central to who we are that we have no choice about believing them. We can NOT unbelieve them and there are things so antithetic to who we are that we can NOT believe them no matter what. That is why I said pick one of those that you currently do NOT believe and choose to believe it. You can NOT because real belief is NOT a choice. Your "incoherence " dodge is untenable and is just your denialist response to something you cannot refute.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:33 PM
 
13,149 posts, read 13,744,725 times
Reputation: 9197
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
What you fail to acknowledge is that we have choices about things that we don't really have a vested interest in, what Miss H. called "nonchalant beliefs." There are things so central to who we are that we have no choice about believing them. We can NOT unbelieve them and there are things so antithetic to who we are that we can NOT believe them no matter what. That is why I said pick one of those that you currently do NOT believe and choose to believe it. You can NOT because real belief is NOT a choice. Your "incoherence " dodge is untenable and is just your denialist response to something you cannot refute.
the flawed logic has been identified.

beliefs are connected to our reasons for choosing those beliefs.
my observation is you have trouble distinguishing between the "belief" and the "reasons"

"central to who we are" "vested interest" "antithetic to who we are" are still reasons for choosing this belief or rejecting that belief. Those are reasons. Those reasons are a factor in determining the choices we make.

another piece of flawed logic identified is the artificial distinction between "real beliefs" and "nonchalant beliefs."
that's like saying "real music" and "nonchalant music." "real clothing" and "nonchalant clothing." we still pick out the music we listen to and the clothes we wear. no matter how strongly we feel about it one way or the other.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:46 PM
 
13,149 posts, read 13,744,725 times
Reputation: 9197
it's a simple process.
we have free choice. we choose our beliefs.
a person could fill in the blanks, "I believe _________ this to be true, because _________ these are my reasons for believing it."

same as "I choose to believe this_______(belief) becuase of ________ (these reasons)."
works in the rejection of a belief also: "I reject this __________ (belief) because of __________ (these reasons)."

often times when we list our reasons, they lead us to or turn out to be additional beliefs that we have.
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:01 PM
 
40,412 posts, read 26,927,749 times
Reputation: 6077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
the flawed logic has been identified.

beliefs are connected to our reasons for choosing those beliefs.
my observation is you have trouble distinguishing between the "belief" and the "reasons"

"central to who we are" "vested interest" "antithetic to who we are" are still reasons for choosing this belief or rejecting that belief. Those are reasons. Those reasons are a factor in determining the choices we make.

another piece of flawed logic identified is the artificial distinction between "real beliefs" and "nonchalant beliefs."
that's like saying "real music" and "nonchalant music." "real clothing" and "nonchalant clothing." we still pick out the music we listen to and the clothes we wear. no matter how strongly we feel about it one way or the other.
You clearly have no clue how logic works. PROVE it is a choice by choosing to believe something you do NOT currently believe. IF it is only a choice, you should be able to do that. Stop your pretense at the incoherence nonsense. It is straightforward. Can you choose to believe something you do NOT believe or not? If it is only a choice, you should be able to do it. I maintain you can NOT, therefore it is NOT a choice.
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:44 PM
 
13,149 posts, read 13,744,725 times
Reputation: 9197
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You clearly have no clue how logic works. PROVE it is a choice by choosing to believe something you do NOT currently believe. IF it is only a choice, you should be able to do that. Stop your pretense at the incoherence nonsense. It is straightforward. Can you choose to believe something you do NOT believe or not? If it is only a choice, you should be able to do it. I maintain you can NOT, therefore it is NOT a choice.
having free choice what to believe does not mean that you then believe anything and everything.
having free choice does not dictate or determine what you believe.

it's like a menu in restaurant. you pick some foods. you reject others.
you have compelling reasons for picking the foods that you do off the menu. one food will make you sick. one food will send you to the hospital. but that does not change the fact that they are printed on the menu and you are the one picking food from the menu and having it delivered onto your plate.

what you are saying is order food that makes you vomit, and if you decline to do so, then this proves you do not have free choice to order from the menu. that is the flaw in the logic. that is the garbled premise that to me is incoherent.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-06-2019 at 03:54 PM..
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:55 PM
 
Location: The Eastern Shore
2,300 posts, read 622,449 times
Reputation: 1161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
of course we control our beliefs.
we choose our beliefs.
Are you daft??? You think people can just decide to believe in something? Could you decide to just believe in, say, Hinduism? Bigfoot? Aliens? A pink teapot orbiting the moon? Mind control? Could you just decide to stop believing in God?

After reading the rest of your posts, you seem to not understand what "choice" is. I can choose to wear a blue shirt or a red shirt, or listen to rock music or pop music. I can't choose to believe in God, just as you can not all of a sudden choose to stop believing or start believing in little green aliens. If something happens to change your mind, then you aren't "choosing" to believe something, you are looking at evidence, and saying it validates something. That is not the same as choosing your beliefs.
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:59 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,263 posts, read 11,065,657 times
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You can't CHOOSE to believe anything. You can choose to act on a belief. You can choose to do something. You can choose to go to church, but that has no effect on whether you believe what is being taught there. You believe what your mind tells you is true, regardless of what somebody tries to tell you.

I cannot choose to believe that brussel sprouts taste good. Every fiber of my being knows that they are truly an abomination. It is absolutely impossible for me to choose to like brussel sprouts.
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:12 PM
 
40,412 posts, read 26,927,749 times
Reputation: 6077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
having free choice what to believe does not mean that you then believe anything and everything.
having free choice does not dictate or determine what you believe.

it's like a menu in restaurant. you pick some foods. you reject others.
you have compelling reasons for picking the foods that you do off the menu. one food will make you sick. one food will send you to the hospital. but that does not change the fact that they are printed on the menu and you are the one picking food from the menu and having it delivered onto your plate.

what you are saying is order food that makes you vomit, and if you decline to do so, then this proves you do not have free choice to order from the menu. that is the flaw in the logic. that is the garbled premise that to me is incoherent.
You are so conflicted over the notion of free choice or free will that you deny that there are things you truly believe at your core that have nothing to do with your choices. You may not even know why you believe them so how that could be the result of choice is absurd. What you truly believe has nothing to do with your choices. Other beliefs can be choices because, if you are honest, you don't really believe them in your heart of hearts. They are not important enough.
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:17 PM
 
13,149 posts, read 13,744,725 times
Reputation: 9197
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's View Post
Are you daft??? You think people can just decide to believe in something? Could you decide to just believe in, say, Hinduism? Bigfoot? Aliens? A pink teapot orbiting the moon? Mind control? Could you just decide to stop believing in God?

After reading the rest of your posts, you seem to not understand what "choice" is. I can choose to wear a blue shirt or a red shirt, or listen to rock music or pop music. I can't choose to believe in God, just as you can not all of a sudden choose to stop believing or start believing in little green aliens. If something happens to change your mind, then you aren't "choosing" to believe something, you are looking at evidence, and saying it validates something. That is not the same as choosing your beliefs.
you choose your beliefs
based on the reasons you have for either saying YES i believe this or NO i reject this belief.
it's that simple

choices available
personal reasons for saying YES or NO
= your beliefs

no one except Mystic is asking anyone to believe something they don't believe.
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