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Old 08-14-2019, 12:54 PM
 
13,088 posts, read 3,332,017 times
Reputation: 1636

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I assure you I make no effort to twist anything. I simply wanted to point out that any Truth you come up with will be constrained to a certain level of perception and experience. Solipsists even question whether or not there is even a reality separate from our mind's interpretations. I am no solipsist but just saying that your truths are constrained to the level you employ for ascertaining the truth. It is a function of my philosophical training that I make these kinds of distinctions, eg. Newton's laws are true but only at the macro level.
Fair enough, but I am not arguing that ascertaining the truth comes with no "constraints." There are significant constraints, challenges and obstacles, but this too does not negate the simple fact that there is a universal truth and that we should be careful about how we decide what it is. This too I like to think is what my Nine Truths are all about, including those constraints, challenges and obstacles.

What laws are true at any level are true because the truth of these matters does indeed exist, whether we fully understand what these truths actually are or not. What part of my comment here or my prior comment in this respect do you not understand or disagree with?

Might it be your "philosophical training" is getting in the way of you understanding me and/or the obvious here?

I've got to sign off now, but perhaps we can better reconcile the truth about all this tomorrow if necessary and/or if we are still not on the "same page."
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Old 08-14-2019, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
15,223 posts, read 5,093,259 times
Reputation: 1554
I would disagree with not having one's own facts. I see non religious, seemingly intelligent people of science and from all walks of life presenting lies as facts all the time. The word,'' Fact,'' seems to be in the eye of the beholder nowadays lol.

People don't care about facts these days, and an Atheist scientist is no exception to the rule. I don't lie to myself, and that is probably the resson I have switched religions several times, I can't live with contradiction.

Tens of millions of Christians will boldly claim that they have the power of the spirit, and they say that's a fact, it is what I told myself for decades, until one day I said to myself,'' Can I really pray for anything I want and expect to recieve what I ask with no doubt?

Could I really walk into a hospital and put my hands on anyone to heal them? Could I be in that same hospital when somebody has died to lay hands on the dead, and KNOW FOR SURE that when I lay my hands on them, they will come back to life? Can I heal the blind and the deaf?

So far, the only thing I have been able to heal is leprosy.

If I am completely honest with the facts that is.
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Old 08-14-2019, 01:32 PM
Status: "I care about your eternity. Sorry." (set 12 days ago)
 
248 posts, read 31,988 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Look at this in the simplest of terms, say for example that the Earth is not flat but actually round. Are you saying that there is not ONE truth about this just because some people still believe the Earth is flat? Of course there is one universal truth concerning the shape of the Earth. Right?

That people don't agree about the truth does not at all suggest there is not one universal truth, regardless all beliefs to the contrary. One most certainly must accept this simple truth anyway, if there is any hope of further understanding here.
...
Do we not agree about this at least? Truth vs contrary beliefs that are not true at all?
I agree with you that absolute truth exists. You used the example of the shape of the Earth. I think the same can be said of God's existence. Either God exists or He doesn't. Whether or not we believe one way or the other doesn't impact the objective reality of the situation, whatever that is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
NINE TRUTHS

ONE: There are two essential realities for all human beings. One reality is as they perceive it to be -- their personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the Universe -- universal truth.
I would suggest that there is only one objective reality; that 'personal realities' are subjective interpretations of objective reality.

(LearnMe, I thought it would be good to discuss your Nine Truths, one at a time. Are you OK with that approach? Also, I'm not sure if this should be moved to it's own thread?)
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Old 08-14-2019, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
15,223 posts, read 5,093,259 times
Reputation: 1554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew View Post
I agree with you that absolute truth exists. You used the example of the shape of the Earth. I think the same can be said of God's existence. Either God exists or He doesn't. Whether or not we believe one way or the other doesn't impact the objective reality of the situation, whatever that is.




I would suggest that there is only one objective reality; that 'personal realities' are subjective interpretations of objective reality.

(LearnMe, I thought it would be good to discuss your Nine Truths, one at a time. Are you OK with that approach? Also, I'm not sure if this should be moved to it's own thread?)
Yeah, you could be one of his disciples, just watchout you aint the Judas, yeah, I can come along later like Elijah and call fire down on eveyone who disgrees.
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:22 PM
Status: "I care about your eternity. Sorry." (set 12 days ago)
 
248 posts, read 31,988 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Yeah, you could be one of his disciples, just watchout you aint the Judas, yeah, I can come along later like Elijah and call fire down on eveyone who disgrees.
Thanks, Hairyball Flatulence!
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Old 08-14-2019, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
15,223 posts, read 5,093,259 times
Reputation: 1554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew View Post
Thanks, Hairyball Flatulence!
Hey, anytime, but is that all you got?

Kinda petty, lol.
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Old Yesterday, 09:52 AM
 
13,088 posts, read 3,332,017 times
Reputation: 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
I would disagree with not having one's own facts. I see non religious, seemingly intelligent people of science and from all walks of life presenting lies as facts all the time. The word,'' Fact,'' seems to be in the eye of the beholder nowadays lol.

People don't care about facts these days, and an Atheist scientist is no exception to the rule. I don't lie to myself, and that is probably the resson I have switched religions several times, I can't live with contradiction.

Tens of millions of Christians will boldly claim that they have the power of the spirit, and they say that's a fact, it is what I told myself for decades, until one day I said to myself,'' Can I really pray for anything I want and expect to recieve what I ask with no doubt?

Could I really walk into a hospital and put my hands on anyone to heal them? Could I be in that same hospital when somebody has died to lay hands on the dead, and KNOW FOR SURE that when I lay my hands on them, they will come back to life? Can I heal the blind and the deaf?

So far, the only thing I have been able to heal is leprosy.

If I am completely honest with the facts that is.
You are making the same mistake...

Though we can all agree there is much that intelligent people can and will do, no matter their beliefs, to distort the facts and/or the truth, this DOES NOT MEAN ONE ULTIMATE UNIVERSAL TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST.

The problem or challenge is how to establish and understand what the universal truth may be, regardless all our shortcomings, biases and ignorance, just as we eventually, ultimately, came to understand the Sun does not revolve around the Earth. Though there was once that stood in the way of establishing and understanding that universal truth once upon a time. That truth was also revealed to us in time regardless the challenges and obstacles that existed once upon a time. Now we know the universal truth about this as well, despite all the very common and entirely wrong belief about this before.

Stay tuned for more to come...

Last edited by LearnMe; Yesterday at 11:04 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 10:01 AM
 
13,088 posts, read 3,332,017 times
Reputation: 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew View Post
I agree with you that absolute truth exists. You used the example of the shape of the Earth. I think the same can be said of God's existence. Either God exists or He doesn't. Whether or not we believe one way or the other doesn't impact the objective reality of the situation, whatever that is.

I would suggest that there is only one objective reality; that 'personal realities' are subjective interpretations of objective reality.

(LearnMe, I thought it would be good to discuss your Nine Truths, one at a time. Are you OK with that approach? Also, I'm not sure if this should be moved to it's own thread?)
With all due respect, we seem to be talking two different things (and totally disregarding my Nine Truths)...

The shape of the Earth is a universal truth because no rational intelligent human being can really dispute this truth given all the evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt" that proves the Earth is not flat but round. You simply can't compare your particular BELIEF to such a generally accepted universal truth. To put it another way, there are many different religions with many versions of God and holy books. There are no similar differences among people all over the world with different versions regarding the shape of the Earth.

I really can't understand how anyone can't recognize this very obvious significant difference that I do my best to make clear with my Nine Truths. Of course if these sorts of basic obvious facts well recognized by everyone are somehow put into the same category as faith, nothing about my Nine Truths will make much sense, but really?
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Old Yesterday, 10:02 AM
 
13,088 posts, read 3,332,017 times
Reputation: 1636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew View Post
(LearnMe, I thought it would be good to discuss your Nine Truths, one at a time. Are you OK with that approach? Also, I'm not sure if this should be moved to it's own thread?)
Of course and/or you may find this thread of interest given your suggestion...

How Christianity relates to humanity
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Old Yesterday, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Ohio
20,144 posts, read 14,367,086 times
Reputation: 16333
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
I still say there is no universal truth because not everyone will agree on the same truth.
That's because you don't understand what Universal Truth is.

Universal Truth exists. It's all around you.

One electron orbiting one proton is an Hydrogen atom and it has certain basic properties and characteristics. That's a Universal Truth.

If you cease to exist or even if you never existed, that Universal Truth is not altered.

What you call the particles is subjective. You can call an electron a "wad" and a proton a "widget" and an Hydrogen atom a "fuzzy-whiz" but you have not altered Universal Truth, because whatever you call it, it still has the same basic properties and characteristics.

Two fuzzy-whiz atoms will do the same thing two Hydrogen atoms do under sufficient temperature and pressure, and that is fuse to form a Helium atom and release ~86 MeV of energy.

That's true everywhere in this Universe. That's why it's a Universal Truth.

The Sciences are all Universal Truth, because they are objectively true. That's why we differentiate the Social Sciences like psychology, sociology and history from the Sciences. The Social Sciences are subjective rather than objective. Not everyone in a dysfunctional home grows up to be a serial killer or a mass murderer or a genius.


Universal Truth is the reason we are able to make scientific predictions and the reason you have a life.
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