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Old Yesterday, 11:31 AM
 
Location: USA
3,577 posts, read 1,292,578 times
Reputation: 1045

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damnuluck originally posted the question below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by damnuluck View Post
For those of you who still believe in God, do you think that God keeps on increasing the severity of the so called 'trials' if you haven't failed the previous ones - kind of like a video game where each new level gets more difficult than the last one.

I have seen so many examples around me, where people have braved their misfortunes with unbelievable patience and faith, only to be faced with something even harder than what they previously encountered so much so that at some point they just break down and falter, so to say, which makes you wonder if God set them up for failure?
I would like to consider the doctrine involved in this question in greater detail.

According to common Christian doctrine (it is generally agreed by the overwhelming majority Christians that I have encountered to be true), that God is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing, including full foreknowledge of events of the future), and omnipresent (He exists everywhere).

Those believers who wish to dispute these three aspects of God's nature should proceed NOW!

Continuing on:

Also according to common Christian doctrine, (because it's in the Bible), God created heaven and earth (Gen. 1:10), the beasts of the earth (Gen.1:24-25), and the first human, Adam (Gen. 1:27, Gen. 2:7). God also created a woman, to be called Eve (Gen.2: 22-23). Omnipotent God did these things purposefully, with his own hand. The man and the woman and each creature was created to be exactly as God intended them to be. Omnipotent God does not fail in His intentions (according to common Christian doctrine).

Those believers who wish to dispute that these elements of the story as contained in Genesis were not intended to represent literal fact but were intended to be metaphorical in nature should proceed NOW!

Continuing on:

God placed Adam and Eve and all of the beasts that He had created with his own hand into a garden. Being omnipotent God got exactly the result He intended to get when He created each of them. God placed Adam and Eve and the serpent into the garden together. Being omniscient God knew with perfect certainty what would occur. When the expected outcome occurred, God condemned and punished both sides for being EXACTLY as they were created to be (gullible; subtil), and doing EXACTLY as He KNEW they would do. So who is the actual responsible party for the tragedy that occurred?

Let's consider this story rationally.

A father places two children and a poisonous snake into a garden. The children eventually die of snake bite. Who would normally bear the burden of responsibility? The children? The snake? Or the father? A human father might well plead that, since he did not know with perfect certainty that the children would be bitten, he was not to blame.

Omnipotent omniscient God however can make no such defence.

So the question becomes, is God ACTUALLY omnipotent? Or is He FALLIBLE? God is omnipotent according to the NT.

Rev.19
[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.


Is God ACTUALLY omniscient? To be omnipotent would necessarily require omniscience as well. While the Bible does not specifically state that God is omniscient, it does indicate God that God is omniscient.

Acts 15:
[18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Psalm 139:
[16]Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

Psalm 56:
[8]You have taken account of my wanderings; Put my tears in Your bottle. Are they not in Your book?

Psalm 40:
[7]Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
[8]I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart.


A God who is not omnipotent and omniscient would be prone to make mistakes. A God who is not omnipotent and omniscient would be prone to failing.

Is God prone to make mistakes and failing to achieve His intentions ?

According to the OT DOES make mistakes and fails to achieve His intentions.

[i]Genesis 6:
[5] And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
[6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

So who is the more confused, the omnipotent omniscient God who fails to achieve His intentions, or the confused believers who promote this self contradictory nonsense as revealed truth?
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Old Yesterday, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,797 posts, read 12,338,203 times
Reputation: 16826
"So who is the more confused, the omnipotent omniscient God who fails to achieve His intentions, or the confused believers who promote this self contradictory nonsense as revealed truth?"

Does anyone honestly think a Being, singular and alone, the Only One before creation of any kind...
with no one else to
play with, interact with and mostly to love and love Him...would be happy with dinosaurs and plants?
Do you, then, think He would be happy for eternity with robot puppets in a Paradise for ever?
Could you watch a Romantic Comedy for Eternity in a lovely garden over and over?

I say, I and He would rather watch a movie of epic proportions...with wars and triumphs,
broken-hearts and upliftment, loves lost and loves found,
tragedy and comedy...drama and adventure..
action and pain, monsters and warriors, heroes and the defeated.

I say do what He did: place eternal souls in limited bodies, with limited memories - thinking they are trapped....and watch them find their way out to glory and freedom.
Thus, finally realizing the Cosmic Dance.
That there has been an Observer enjoying the entire Play knowing that one day all of His created
'individual selves' would find their way out of the burlap bag of struggles...
into the Light...and back to Him.
Well....that's more exciting than some Garden with no ups and downs forEVER, I say!

I don't think there is any failure of God's Intentions.
One is mono-tone and boring---the other stereophonic and fascinating!
He is Brilliant.
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Old Yesterday, 12:45 PM
 
40,451 posts, read 26,973,825 times
Reputation: 6085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
damnuluck originally posted the question below.
I would like to consider the doctrine involved in this question in greater detail.

According to common Christian doctrine (it is generally agreed by the overwhelming majority Christians that I have encountered to be true), that God is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing, including full foreknowledge of events of the future), and omnipresent (He exists everywhere).

Those believers who wish to dispute these three aspects of God's nature should proceed NOW!
Well, consistent with your overall theme, I ask for evidence that God is or MUST be ANY of the Omni's other than omnipresent. On what basis are these attributes assigned to God?
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Old Yesterday, 12:54 PM
 
Location: USA
3,577 posts, read 1,292,578 times
Reputation: 1045
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Well, consistent with your overall theme, I ask for evidence that God is or MUST be ANY of the Omni's other than omnipresent. On what basis are these attributes assigned to God?
What is the evidence for the ominis that I referenced? The main evidence is because believers have declared that it is true. And then of course, as I pointed out, the NT specifically says that God is omnipotent. Which believers have declared to be true.

Rev.19
[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.


A being who is not omnipotent and omniscient is fallible! A being who is fallible is, well, US.
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Old Yesterday, 01:10 PM
 
Location: USA
3,577 posts, read 1,292,578 times
Reputation: 1045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
"So who is the more confused, the omnipotent omniscient God who fails to achieve His intentions, or the confused believers who promote this self contradictory nonsense as revealed truth?"

Does anyone honestly think a Being, singular and alone, the Only One before creation of any kind...
with no one else to
play with, interact with and mostly to love and love Him...would be happy with dinosaurs and plants?
Do you, then, think He would be happy for eternity with robot puppets in a Paradise for ever?
Could you watch a Romantic Comedy for Eternity in a lovely garden over and over?

I say, I and He would rather watch a movie of epic proportions...with wars and triumphs,
broken-hearts and upliftment, loves lost and loves found,
tragedy and comedy...drama and adventure..
action and pain, monsters and warriors, heroes and the defeated.

I say do what He did: place eternal souls in limited bodies, with limited memories - thinking they are trapped....and watch them find their way out to glory and freedom.
Thus, finally realizing the Cosmic Dance.
That there has been an Observer enjoying the entire Play knowing that one day all of His created
'individual selves' would find their way out of the burlap bag of struggles...
into the Light...and back to Him.
Well....that's more exciting than some Garden with no ups and downs forEVER, I say!

I don't think there is any failure of God's Intentions.
One is mono-tone and boring---the other stereophonic and fascinating!
He is Brilliant.
"A Being, singular and alone, the Only One before creation of any kind... with no one else to play with, interact with and mostly to love and love Him," essentially existed in a state of solitary confinement for an eternity. How long did God's solitary confinement last? If the Earth is only 6,000 - 10,000 years old, then God spent an eternity of time entirely alone before He got around to creating the Earth. If the age of the Earth is 4.5 billion years, which is the current estimate of science, then God STILL spent the eternity of time before the creation of the Earth entirely alone. If God created other beings in the universe besides humans, which science currently estimate to be more than 13 billion years old, then God still spent the eternity of time before the creation of the universe entirely alone.

How insane do you suppose God must be after an eternity in solitary confinement?

Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; Yesterday at 01:19 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,797 posts, read 12,338,203 times
Reputation: 16826
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
"A Being, singular and alone, the Only One before creation of any kind... with no one else to play with, interact with and mostly to love and love Him," essentially existed in a state of solitary confinement for an eternity. How long did God's solitary confinement last? If the Earth is only 6,000 - 10,000 years old, then God spent an eternity of time entirely alone before He got around to creating the Earth. If the age of the Earth is 4.5 billion years, which is the current estimate of science, then God STILL spent the eternity of time before the creation of the Earth entirely alone. If God created other beings in the universe besides humans, which science currently estimate to be more than 13 billion years old, then God still spent the eternity of time before the creation of the universe entirely alone.

How insane do you suppose God must be after an eternity in solitary confinement?
Ha...well 1st off...you don't believe that 6000yr old stuff do you?
I happen to love being alone, lol. Ok, not the point.

Now, since there is no space or time in Reality...God could have been alone for, um...a minute.
But it is obvious He didn't get some things right...take the Palm Tree with the coconuts...
damn hard to get into, way too high to get...and dangerous underneath them!
Then, He places them in hurricane zones...now lets talk about the hurricanes....they come
from out in the Ocean and then damage the most pristine white beaches...
have hurricanes in very ugly places.
So, His judgment could have been impaired from being alone...
not thinking of others can be a problem when alone too long...and we haven't even talked about the avocado situation.
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Old Yesterday, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
15,211 posts, read 5,088,639 times
Reputation: 1552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
damnuluck originally posted the question below.



I would like to consider the doctrine involved in this question in greater detail.

According to common Christian doctrine (it is generally agreed by the overwhelming majority Christians that I have encountered to be true), that God is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing, including full foreknowledge of events of the future), and omnipresent (He exists everywhere).

Those believers who wish to dispute these three aspects of God's nature should proceed NOW!

Continuing on:

Also according to common Christian doctrine, (because it's in the Bible), God created heaven and earth (Gen. 1:10), the beasts of the earth (Gen.1:24-25), and the first human, Adam (Gen. 1:27, Gen. 2:7). God also created a woman, to be called Eve (Gen.2: 22-23). Omnipotent God did these things purposefully, with his own hand. The man and the woman and each creature was created to be exactly as God intended them to be. Omnipotent God does not fail in His intentions (according to common Christian doctrine).

Those believers who wish to dispute that these elements of the story as contained in Genesis were not intended to represent literal fact but were intended to be metaphorical in nature should proceed NOW!

Continuing on:

God placed Adam and Eve and all of the beasts that He had created with his own hand into a garden. Being omnipotent God got exactly the result He intended to get when He created each of them. God placed Adam and Eve and the serpent into the garden together. Being omniscient God knew with perfect certainty what would occur. When the expected outcome occurred, God condemned and punished both sides for being EXACTLY as they were created to be (gullible; subtil), and doing EXACTLY as He KNEW they would do. So who is the actual responsible party for the tragedy that occurred?

Let's consider this story rationally.

A father places two children and a poisonous snake into a garden. The children eventually die of snake bite. Who would normally bear the burden of responsibility? The children? The snake? Or the father? A human father might well plead that, since he did not know with perfect certainty that the children would be bitten, he was not to blame.

Omnipotent omniscient God however can make no such defence.

So the question becomes, is God ACTUALLY omnipotent? Or is He FALLIBLE? God is omnipotent according to the NT.

Rev.19
[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.


Is God ACTUALLY omniscient? To be omnipotent would necessarily require omniscience as well. While the Bible does not specifically state that God is omniscient, it does indicate God that God is omniscient.

Acts 15:
[18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Psalm 139:
[16]Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

Psalm 56:
[8]You have taken account of my wanderings; Put my tears in Your bottle. Are they not in Your book?

Psalm 40:
[7]Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
[8]I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart.


A God who is not omnipotent and omniscient would be prone to make mistakes. A God who is not omnipotent and omniscient would be prone to failing.

Is God prone to make mistakes and failing to achieve His intentions ?

According to the OT DOES make mistakes and fails to achieve His intentions.

[i]Genesis 6:
[5] And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
[6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

So who is the more confused, the omnipotent omniscient God who fails to achieve His intentions, or the confused believers who promote this self contradictory nonsense as revealed truth?
YOU are the garden, YOU ARE Adam, Eve, and the serpent, BEHOLD, because the garden is mankind, the volumn of the book IS OF YOU.

God ia not confused and neither was Moses confused when he tells us of the days of creation.

Moses was no idiot, Moses knew that NOBODY could till and harvest in the same day. You till the garden, you seed, and months later, you have a harvest.

Moses has Adam working the garden and tilling so long that God looked down on him and saw that after all his tilling and harvesting, he was lonely and needed a help mate.

Adam NOT ONLY named EVERYTHING LOVING, Adam had worked the garden so long as to see God looking down on him and his lonliness as to plan a wife for Adam.

THEN, God laid Adam down in a sleep of death HE CUT OPEN ADAM'S CHEST, and God ripped a rib for from the body lf Adam as Adam lay dead.

THEN, God created a wkfe from Adam's own body, and the twk became ONE, a spirit inside a human.



BUT GUESS WHAT?

ALL THIS TOOK PLACE IN 24 HOURS, ADAM HAD NAMED EVERY LIVING THING AND ADAM HAD TILLED AND WORKED THE GARDEN SO LONG THAT ADAM HAD TILLED, SEEDED AND HARVESTED MANY HARVESTS, AND THEN GOD LOOKED DOWN ON HIM AND PITTIED HIM, THEN GOD KILLED ADAM, TOOK A A RIB FROM HIS BODY TO CREATE A BRIDE FROM HIS OWN BODY.

ALL OF THIS IN 24 HOURS BETWEEN ADAM AND EVE.

The creation story IS NOT a literal story, it is a spiritual story about what YOU ARE.

BEHOLD, the volumne of the book is of you, a human, and YOU are that garden.
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Old Today, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,778 posts, read 2,915,793 times
Reputation: 2910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
"So who is the more confused, the omnipotent omniscient God who fails to achieve His intentions, or the confused believers who promote this self contradictory nonsense as revealed truth?"

Does anyone honestly think a Being, singular and alone, the Only One before creation of any kind...
with no one else to
play with, interact with and mostly to love and love Him...would be happy with dinosaurs and plants?
Do you, then, think He would be happy for eternity with robot puppets in a Paradise for ever?
Could you watch a Romantic Comedy for Eternity in a lovely garden over and over?

I say, I and He would rather watch a movie of epic proportions...with wars and triumphs,
broken-hearts and upliftment, loves lost and loves found,
tragedy and comedy...drama and adventure..
action and pain, monsters and warriors, heroes and the defeated.

I say do what He did: place eternal souls in limited bodies, with limited memories - thinking they are trapped....and watch them find their way out to glory and freedom.
Thus, finally realizing the Cosmic Dance.
That there has been an Observer enjoying the entire Play knowing that one day all of His created
'individual selves' would find their way out of the burlap bag of struggles...
into the Light...and back to Him.
Well....that's more exciting than some Garden with no ups and downs forEVER, I say!

I don't think there is any failure of God's Intentions.
One is mono-tone and boring---the other stereophonic and fascinating!
He is Brilliant.
Yes but, being a member of the cast in the play "The tragedy of my life - and that of my two sons and their mother", I don't find it too terribly amusing.

Other plays have been far worse than mine.
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Old Today, 06:59 AM
 
Location: USA
118 posts, read 10,717 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post

Now, since there is no space or time in Reality...God could have been alone for, um...a minute.
But it is obvious He didn't get some things right...take the Palm Tree with the coconuts...
damn hard to get into, way too high to get...and dangerous underneath them!
Then, He places them in hurricane zones...now lets talk about the hurricanes....they come
from out in the Ocean and then damage the most pristine white beaches...
have hurricanes in very ugly places.
So, His judgment could have been impaired from being alone...
not thinking of others can be a problem when alone too long...and we haven't even talked about the avocado situation.

HAHAHA Love it!
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Old Today, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,797 posts, read 12,338,203 times
Reputation: 16826
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
YOU are the garden, YOU ARE Adam, Eve, and the serpent, BEHOLD, because the garden is mankind, the volume of the book IS OF YOU.
I understand what you are saying here.
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