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Old 08-25-2019, 04:39 PM
 
40,100 posts, read 11,239,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeemoments View Post
Humans have known there were things they couldn't explain. This is our story, finding out who we are and what its all about. Like it or not religion is part of that story. As is science.
Ohh.kkkay..I'll take the Best view of that and see religion as a speculative philosophy of the unknown and disregard the controlling and divisive aspects for now (science and even philosophy, i think, is not). I applaud the desire to Know- it is i think the instinct that makes us the most human. But in these days the track record of results (and also debunkd failures) counts more than a venerable history. As i have often pointed out, astrology is even older and just as universal as religion. But NO social, scientific or political system runs on astrology, not since the NDL won the Myanmar elections at any rate.

Quote:
In my view science did confirm it. That's another thing you may not like or appreciate, that we all draw our own conclusions. Unlike you, I am not convinced that science has all the answers or ever will. We'll see.
We will indeed and I am sure we will never get all the answers in my time, but I am amazed at how much we have found out and how little (if any) has been able to confirm religion - which is not the same as religion trying to fiddle science into serving the needs of religion, like Quantum -woo, Universal constants and DNA 'Codes', all of which were misused. We may draw our own conclusions, but they ought to be based on correct use of the evidence, or concede that it's based on faith with the corollary that anyone not going on faith is quite correct not to do so and those who do are not being rational. It's how reason works.

Their choice as I say, but it is profoundly dishonest for them to then pretend that it is somehow more logical and rational than logic and reason.

And we get so bloody much of that.
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Old 08-25-2019, 04:54 PM
 
Location: USA
199 posts, read 27,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Ohh.kkkay..I'll take the Best view of that and see religion as a speculative philosophy of the unknown and disregard the controlling and divisive aspects for now (science and even philosophy, i think, is not). I applaud the desire to Know- it is i think the instinct that makes us the most human. But in these days the track record of results (and also debunkd failures) counts more than a venerable history. As i have often pointed out, astrology is even older and just as universal as religion. But NO social, scientific or polical system runs on astrology, not since the NDL won the Myanmar elections at any rate.

It is all part of the human story.

Quote:
We will indeed and I am sure we will never get all the answers in my time, but I am amazed at how much we have found out and how little (if any) has been able to confirm religion - which is not the same as religion trying to fiddle science into serving the needs of religion, like Quantum -woo, Universal constants and DNA 'Codes', all of which were misused.
Nor will we get them in my time either most likely. But for the remainder of my life I prefer to go where my curiosity leads.. that might be to myths, religion or spiritual teachings. And when science pops up with something interesting to look at that as well.

I respect that people don't believe and their rights should be protected. I have made posts in the past to that. But that doesn't mean I subscribe to the Atheist side of things. I maintain my freedom to even dip into woo if it suits me. Call me whatever you wish, it won't deter me in the slightest. Oh and I'll take all your leprechauns while we're at it.
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Old 08-25-2019, 04:57 PM
 
40,100 posts, read 11,239,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeemoments View Post
It is all part of the human story.


Nor will we get them in my time either most likely. But for the remainder of my life I prefer to go where my curiosity leads.. that might be to myths, religion or spiritual teachings. And when science pops up with something interesting to look at that as well.

I respect that people don't believe and their rights should be protected. I have made posts in the past to that. But that doesn't mean I subscribe to the Atheist side of things. I maintain my freedom to even dip into woo if it suits me. Call me whatever you wish, it won't deter me in the slightest.
I wouldn't wish to deter you in the slightest. But a Rule I rather post by is that anyone who posts an Opinion here is making a Claim. And that means anyone can post disagreement.


You can post in favour of following up religious myths and Chophra-wooish speculative hypotheses and I can post in saying how little logical or scientific weight one can put into these. Indeed, should such posts claim that science is now supporting this Myth and Speculation, I should be morally obliged to point out that they were not telling the truth.
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Old 08-25-2019, 05:10 PM
 
Location: USA
199 posts, read 27,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I wouldn't wish to deter you in the slightest. But a Rule I rather post by is that anyone who posts an Opinion here is making a Claim. And that means anyone can post disagreement.


You can post in favour of following up religious myths and Chophra-wooish speculative hypotheses and I can post in saying how little logical or scientific weight one can put into these.

When I post here I don't usually see it as an adversarial position. I get the feeling you do when you are talking with people who believe. I post to share. Those who like what I share, great maybe we will have a conversation. Those who don't, that is good too, we'll both move on. Whoop-de-do. See how easy that was?


I have no doubt you will jump in to express your dislike or your need to inform me that you think it wasn't logical or doesn't carry enough scientific weight. You appear to be in many of these threads doing that very thing over and over and over with others. Yawn.
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Old 08-25-2019, 06:19 PM
 
13,260 posts, read 13,796,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Hardly that. Humans have always known that there was a lot they couldn't explain. At one time a flat earth with a dome over it and God's throne on top would do. The science showed this untenable. So God was floating in space and doing the Big bang. Then it was shown by Science that this didn't look tenable either, so Gpo has to be put wherever the gaps in science for a god to be popped kept something to hang faith onto.

Science has answered a lot of the questions and religion loses ground all the time and is having to rely on a few remaining Gaps for god, or simply lie to themselves - like telling themselves that science is 'confirming' religion.

Sites like this exist to debunk the lies put out. by religion.
i have been meaning to ask you Trans, since as I said in another post, I am a fan of your posts because of the sound spiritual logic i've seen in some of your posts. it was mentioned in another post about colors that exist which the human eye can not see. you seem OK with that . So regarding "science confirming religion" let me ask you a question.

a central tenet of religion and spirituality is the non-physical element ("soul") that resides in and around the human body.

my question for you Trans, or anyone, is this. or set of questions, but all related. do you think all of you is within your physical body? that is, do you think any part of you exists outside of your physical body? for instance let's say your non-physical soul is not only in your body, but extends oh let's say 25 feet around your body. let's say this soul of yours has a pattern of color and light.

do you believe such a thing exists? there are people who can see this pattern of light. for instance there are medical intuitives who can see this pattern of light and use it to identify imbalance or disease in the person. there are people who can see this pattern of light and note changes in it based on a person's emotions. and note changes in it upon death.

now today let's say you can not see this pattern of light and color. what is your view of people who can see this and describe it? however let's say soon, science develops the technology to view and measure and validate this pattern of color and light, and how no two are the same, and how it changes with emotion and what it does at death. would you then believe such a thing exists that you extend outside your physical body?

that is an example of "science confirming" something that religion and spirituality have recognized and known all along.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-25-2019 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 08-26-2019, 07:03 AM
 
40,100 posts, read 11,239,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeemoments View Post
When I post here I don't usually see it as an adversarial position. I get the feeling you do when you are talking with people who believe. I post to share. Those who like what I share, great maybe we will have a conversation. Those who don't, that is good too, we'll both move on. Whoop-de-do. See how easy that was?


I have no doubt you will jump in to express your dislike or your need to inform me that you think it wasn't logical or doesn't carry enough scientific weight. You appear to be in many of these threads doing that very thing over and over and over with others. Yawn.
That's fine. You post your views. Others reply (or not) and you can reply to that, or not. Everyone happy.
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Old 08-26-2019, 07:13 AM
 
40,100 posts, read 11,239,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
i have been meaning to ask you Trans, since as I said in another post, I am a fan of your posts because of the sound spiritual logic i've seen in some of your posts. it was mentioned in another post about colors that exist which the human eye can not see. you seem OK with that . So regarding "science confirming religion" let me ask you a question.

a central tenet of religion and spirituality is the non-physical element ("soul") that resides in and around the human body.

my question for you Trans, or anyone, is this. or set of questions, but all related. do you think all of you is within your physical body? that is, do you think any part of you exists outside of your physical body? for instance let's say your non-physical soul is not only in your body, but extends oh let's say 25 feet around your body. let's say this soul of yours has a pattern of color and light.

do you believe such a thing exists? there are people who can see this pattern of light. for instance there are medical intuitives who can see this pattern of light and use it to identify imbalance or disease in the person. there are people who can see this pattern of light and note changes in it based on a person's emotions. and note changes in it upon death.

now today let's say you can not see this pattern of light and color. what is your view of people who can see this and describe it? however let's say soon, science develops the technology to view and measure and validate this pattern of color and light, and how no two are the same, and how it changes with emotion and what it does at death. would you then believe such a thing exists that you extend outside your physical body?

that is an example of "science confirming" something that religion and spirituality have recognized and known all along.
You have it exactly right. It's the point of the 'they denied powered flight' fallacy - or the (cold fusion) refutation of it. It is valid and correct to doubt a claim until verified. Thus I watch all this stuff about NDE's the Holographic universe, the 'soul' and Abiogenesis and see what appears to get scientific credibility. I'm sorry if that sounds like 'scientism' but they do have the methods that produce valid results and the speculations of the religious don't. In fact science robs them of their claims again and again.

Thus I have to decline to believe in a soul, NDE's spirit messages or anything of that kind being outside of our body or mind (which is part of the body) until science is convinced of it. Where the Religious (in the broadest sense) fall down logically is demanding that we accept it at face value now. The feelings that we have a soul seem universal. NDE's seem to happen. But can we rely on these feelings? At one time dreams were considered significant. The Bible presents them as messages from God. Does anyone really believe that now?
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Old 08-26-2019, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Florida
20,044 posts, read 20,144,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post


now today let's say you can not see this pattern of light and color. what is your view of people who can see this and describe it? however let's say soon, science develops the technology to view and measure and validate this pattern of color and light, and how no two are the same, and how it changes with emotion and what it does at death. would you then believe such a thing exists that you extend outside your physical body?

that is an example of "science confirming" something that religion and spirituality have recognized and known all along.
Science has validated what is known as an aura(electromagnetic field of energy) although the claim is more like 4 to 5 feet around a body.
What Is Human Aura? - BioField Global Research Inc.
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:37 AM
 
544 posts, read 109,145 times
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Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Science has validated what is known as an aura(electromagnetic field of energy) although the claim is more like 4 to 5 feet around a body.
What Is Human Aura? - BioField Global Research Inc.
It's done no such thing, I'm afraid. If anything, what little research has been done in that field showed that auras could be an effect of synesthesia, a symptom of a number of neurological conditions, drugs, or just your brain fooling you.

James Randi famously did a demonstration to test an ability to perceive aura. Apparently the Berkeley Psychic Institute's top aura reader who, having been consulted, agreed that the test was fair and accurate and who assured the audience that they could indeed observe auras, failed to live up to the experiment's prediction quite spectacularly.



The link in your post is just a bunch of pseudo-scientific claims.
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Old 08-26-2019, 10:13 AM
 
13,260 posts, read 13,796,837 times
Reputation: 9228
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
You have it exactly right. It's the point of the 'they denied powered flight' fallacy - or the (cold fusion) refutation of it. It is valid and correct to doubt a claim until verified. Thus I watch all this stuff about NDE's the Holographic universe, the 'soul' and Abiogenesis and see what appears to get scientific credibility. I'm sorry if that sounds like 'scientism' but they do have the methods that produce valid results and the speculations of the religious don't. In fact science robs them of their claims again and again.

Thus I have to decline to believe in a soul, NDE's spirit messages or anything of that kind being outside of our body or mind (which is part of the body) until science is convinced of it. Where the Religious (in the broadest sense) fall down logically is demanding that we accept it at face value now. The feelings that we have a soul seem universal. NDE's seem to happen. But can we rely on these feelings? At one time dreams were considered significant. The Bible presents them as messages from God. Does anyone really believe that now?
my post is about none of these Trans, not talking about flight, not talking about cold fusion, not talking about feelings, not talking about dreams, not talking about NDEs. and no, I am not saying "accept it now." because you do not and that doesn't matter to me at all.

just saying many have known it all along. and eventually technology will "catch up" to that.
quite simply the human body, the human intelligence, the human intuition, the human discernment, the human wisdom, the human soul, the human innate, are able to discern many things which science and technology are slow to grasp and lag behind in their capability to verify and validate.

where your post falls down is to say that "science robs them of their claim"
because when technology is able to verify the pattern of color and light it will validate the existence of non-physical consciousness (soul) that extends and exists outside the physical body.

which does not "rob them of their claim" at all rather quite the opposite, it "validates and verifies" it
which was the sole and only point of my previous post.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-26-2019 at 10:32 AM..
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