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Old Today, 06:40 AM
 
Location: USA
199 posts, read 27,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenninindy View Post
we are dealing with a God that is beyond our reason and logic, who sometimes, not all the time, wants us to also defy reason and logic, to search for, walk by faith, and to know on a more personal level also. More so during this Age Of Grace, I think.

I don't know that I would state this the same way gleninindy but I understand within your religion where you're coming from.

Personally I think logic and reason is great but it is not the whole of our capabilities. Humans are capable of more than only reason and logic. Faith or belief stands as an example of that "more." Love is another example.
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Old Today, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,955 posts, read 12,415,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenninindy View Post
Of course; Regarding Real Faith, I cannot logically explain or describe to everybody what the
beautiful and amazing Voice of God exactly sounded like, or what the Divine Presence
of the Holy Spirit Felt like adequately enough......<snip>
Pleeeease...try?
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Old Today, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,955 posts, read 12,415,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeemoments View Post
Personally I think logic and reason is great but it is not the whole of our capabilities.
Humans are capable of more than only reason and logic.
Faith or belief stands as an example of that "more." Love is another example.
And intuition...our 6th sense.

Story: It is 100% illogical and is not reasonable in any way that I had a deep belief that
I would NEVER have a 30 year mortgage...what on earth would give me that idea?
Well, about 9 years into it someone up and gave me $$ to pay it all off, no strings, and I never
had a worry or complaint leading up to it and wasn't surprised when it happened.
And people say belief is silly....belief is everything to me, the power to create, a power of the mind.
And that is just one small story of belief and faith, knowing and complete trust
in The 'Unseen', The 'Unprovable', ha, in my life...others most wouldn't believe.

That's why I say logic, reason and faith go hand in hand.
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Old Today, 07:18 AM
 
13,261 posts, read 13,796,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeemoments View Post
I don't know that I would state this the same way gleninindy but I understand within your religion where you're coming from.

Personally I think logic and reason is great but it is not the whole of our capabilities. Humans are capable of more than only reason and logic. Faith or belief stands as an example of that "more." Love is another example.
exactly
other examples: perception, intuition, discernment, creativity, joy, humor, wisdom, compassion, integrity, loving kindness, delight, courage, happiness, peace, music, art, poetry

a person can choose whether or not to develop and use the capabilities
because we have free choice on this planet as humans

for me it is not logical or rational to deny or dismiss or ignore those capabilities that we have
for me it is very reasonable, logical, and rational to develop and use those capabilities.


it is never an "either" "or"
it is never "use one only"
for me that is irrational. and not logical.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; Today at 07:27 AM..
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Old Today, 07:28 AM
 
13,261 posts, read 13,796,837 times
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Trans or anyone
do you recognize that thought causes change in physical matter?


[=a principle of "religion and spirituality"]

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; Today at 07:38 AM..
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Old Today, 07:36 AM
 
Location: USA
199 posts, read 27,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
And intuition...our 6th sense.

Story: It is 100% illogical and is not reasonable in any way that I had a deep belief that
I would NEVER have a 30 year mortgage...what on earth would give me that idea?
Well, about 9 years into it someone up and gave me $$ to pay it all off, no strings, and I never
had a worry or complaint leading up to it and wasn't surprised when it happened.
And people say belief is silly....belief is everything to me, the power to create, a power of the mind.
And that is just one small story of belief and faith, knowing and complete trust
in The 'Unseen', The 'Unprovable', ha, in my life...others most wouldn't believe.

That's why I say logic, reason and faith go hand in hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
exactly
other examples: perception, intuition, discernment, creativity, joy, humor, wisdom, compassion, integrity, loving kindness, delight, courage, happiness, peace, music, art, poetry

a person can choose whether or not to develop and use the capabilities
because we have free choice on this planet as humans

for me it is not logical or rational to deny or dismiss or ignore those capabilities that we have
for me it is very reasonable, logical, and rational to develop and use those capabilities.


it is never an "either" "or"
it is never "use one only"
for me that is irrational. and not logical.
I agree with both of you Miss Hepburn your experience with knowing you would never have a 30 year mortgage is a great example of claircognizance or clear knowing. It is possible to know things without knowing how you know. It is part of intuition. And Tzaphkiel agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote.
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Old Today, 09:43 AM
 
40,101 posts, read 11,239,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
I don't see us proselityzing...just sharing, yes. I can't even spell it.
Oh yes. I am very familiar with the desire to simply roll up here and talk about their various beliefs without having to respond to any questions. The 'Not arguing -just telling' ploy is even older than various suggestions that the skeptics just shut up and go away. It doesn't work like that anymore. Not until the ToS bans all skeptical questioning from R/S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
it has nothing to do with "faith" or "inspiration"

we are talking about the human being's ability and capacity to discern exceeding that which science and technology can at the current time validate or verify.
No. we are in fact talking about more than that - a 'larger field' which it is claimed science/technology will come to know about (1). But whit, it is implied if not claimed, believers already know about through Faith/Inspiration.

Thus we are being told this thing is known to be real through Faith, inspiration and the assertion that science will come to know it is merely another Faith -claim. I (we non- believers) say 'Fine, you can believe that, but it is not the slightest reason why we should. All we are getting is 'I have Faith' again and again. Ok, but it validates absolutely nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Something you and I CAN agree on, Tzaph.
Yes. While believers of various stripe may disagree on everything else, they all believe in God disguised with various epithets.

(1) QUOTE=Tzaphkiel;56027677]when technology "catches up" and advances beyond its current limitations
the larger field will be recognized.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; Today at 09:59 AM..
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Old Today, 10:13 AM
 
40,101 posts, read 11,239,133 times
Reputation: 5176
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
No, you can not.
Reason being is simple. To see x-ray you have to have organ of sense, capable of its direct perception. You do not.
What you then do, you create an apparatus, that translates perception of an x-ray into something that can be perceived by a normal human eye and interpreted by a normal human mind.
Logically, you see and comprehend only interpretation of what a machine provided for you.

that interpretation, in addition, being fouled by ones preconceptions, education, physical and mental limitations, pressure from the outside (you have your grant. It will be extended ONLY if you produce certain results), acceptance by "scientific society" and so on and so on. Heck, by what food you had or have during experiment, as physiology influences mental processes.
At the least, results will be an opinion(originally faulty, as it is based in interpretation of objective data, not the data itself), at the worst - absolute lie to fit into certain parameters over-imposed onto researcher.

What we had plenty of happening. As example, from geocentric system and flat Earth, to solar centric system and spherical Earth and now back to flat Earth and solar system not even closely being to solar centric but, moving in complex spiral through the universe, with planets trailing behind the son in a spiral manner. What, actually, it a perfect fact.
I think you are falling in the old trap or fallacy of appealing to imperfect human perceptions (which are corrected by science) in order to cast doubt on science because of imperfect human perceptions. Science has provided methods of replacing understandable but incorrect assumptions about the reality we are in (we do not live on a flat earth with a dome over it) with ones that are better. Like it is a planetary orbiting system. Sure, the ancients originally thought the earth was at the centre of it, and when the sun was put at the centre of it, the elliptical orbits weren't worked out until later.

The point is that knowledge is improved as we go on, but that the previous ideas were incorrect doesn't mean that they were not a great improvement over the previous assumptions due to human imperfect perceptions; nor do they in any way invalidate the science that corrected them.

Mystic Phd may recall from the 'matrix-plantinga' thread of many years ago that this point was raised and thrashed out: I've had to remind him of it several times since. But it's one that pops up occasionally in the arguments of those trying to debunk science in hopes (it seems) to make mystical speculation the only method for coming up with beliefs - just like it was in the good old days
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Old Today, 10:20 AM
 
40,101 posts, read 11,239,133 times
Reputation: 5176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
exactly
other examples: perception, intuition, discernment, creativity, joy, humor, wisdom, compassion, integrity, loving kindness, delight, courage, happiness, peace, music, art, poetry

a person can choose whether or not to develop and use the capabilities
because we have free choice on this planet as humans

for me it is not logical or rational to deny or dismiss or ignore those capabilities that we have
for me it is very reasonable, logical, and rational to develop and use those capabilities.


it is never an "either" "or"
it is never "use one only"
for me that is irrational. and not logical.
Nobody is denying them, Tzaph. it is only being pointed out that they are human characteristics and do not in any way validate a claim to be (or validate) perceptions of some knowledge instilling force outside us.

It does not in any way
validate them
even if you post it
in scriptural soundbytes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Trans or anyone
do you recognize that thought causes change in physical matter?


[=a principle of "religion and spirituality"]
To the same extent that one could argue that war causes human benefits, yes one could say that. But it leaves too much out, d'ye see?

Thinking say of some terrifying memory may make hair to stand up in that instinctive reaction, or adrenaline to speed up the heart. Also working out ideas when manufactured or technologically validated may cause 'changes' is the technology (physical matter) which is a somewhat more tenuous application of the term. To claim (as one might, equivocating the term out of reason) that thought can make any difference to the structure of matter (1) of a crystal, bar of iron or piece of cheese is a claim without the validity of either of the previous. usages.

That said, what was the point that you were hoping to make?

(1) I can see Shrodinger's cat lurking offstage

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; Today at 10:31 AM..
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Old Today, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,955 posts, read 12,415,928 times
Reputation: 16874
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeemoments View Post
I agree with both of you Miss Hepburn your experience with knowing you would never have a 30 year mortgage is a great example of claircognizance or clear knowing. It is possible to know things without knowing how you know. It is part of intuition.
That is an excellent explanation ...and would please many people.

However, in my case, I knew because I knew my Heavenly Father takes care of me and He and I both knew, because of our close relationship,
that He had been each month
and would completely take care of that pesky mtg.
Cuz, He's my Dad. And I depend on Him with all my being.
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