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Old 08-24-2019, 06:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Can you cite your source, that they chose Islam out of necessity and not choice.
No, because I'm making a connection between that turn to Islam and the black emancipation movement, and bearing in mind that we are not hearing of any such black American rush to islam now that the campaign wound down after achieving a lot of its' aims. That would imply that the reason was not because Islam was particularly attractive to them. I'm not saying that I couldn't be wrong, but I'd like to hear you explain the phenomenon in other terms, and also why you interpret my observation of that phenomenon as somehow racist.
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Old 08-24-2019, 06:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Can you cite your source, that they chose Islam out of necessity and not choice.
It is possible though to make a choice out of necessity. I am guessing that becoming atheist was not a workable option.
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Old 08-24-2019, 06:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
It is possible though to make a choice out of necessity. I am guessing that becoming atheist was not a workable option.
Becoming a communist was the nearest to that. As I recall, Malcolm X became a Communist and turned to Islam later on. I can't be sure of the motives, but it seems pretty likely that it was all to do with the Black Emancipation movement rather than religious convictions.

I just had a quick look and it's a bit more complicated. He was working for Black emancipation though he rejected the 'integration' idea s of the Civil rights movement. He was investigated for Communist links but it doesn't say that he actually joined the communists. He did join nation of Islam and then 'became disillusioned' with them and was assassinated.
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Old 08-24-2019, 06:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Becoming a communist was the nearest to that. As I recall, Malcolm X became a Communist and turned to Islam later on. I can't be sure of the motives, but it seems pretty likely that it was all to do with the Black Emancipation movement rather than religious convictions.
I think religious convictions also needed to be questioned when trying to gain a certain amount of freedom in society. To become an atheist, though, serves a different purpose, imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I just had a quick look and it's a bit more complicated. He was working for Black emancipation though he rejected the 'integration' idea s of the Civil rights movement. He was investigated for Communist links but it doesn't say that he actually joined the communists. He did join nation of Islam and then 'became disillusioned' with them and was assassinated.
I find that interesting that he would reject the integration of Civil Rights ideas.

But to continue the direction of having to make a choice out of necessity, I thought about my need to make an exit from my religious community. But then I wondered, what do I replace it with? Do I replace my convictions? With what? Another religion? These were very difficult questions to get answered.

Today, it is easier to not be part of a religious community.
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Old 08-24-2019, 07:04 AM
 
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It was interesting. He rejected integration initially but came to accept the idea later on.

It is certainly a question that pops up if you leave a religion; what do you replace it with. I now see another 'Ism' - Humanism - as perfectly adequate and while it does not deny religious claims, it does not see the need for them to live your life. Religion would only deal with death and the idea of an afterlife. That's not an easy one to deal with as a secularist, but it can be done. The problem is not so much how you deal with religion personally, but whether you are allowed to. We think it is bad in America, but it's nothing like as bad as it is in Islamic countries. Leaving the religion even to go to a different religion is a crime in many of them.
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Old 08-24-2019, 07:27 AM
 
Location: USA
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I'm curious... If you were raised in a religion and didn't believe in it, felt the leadership was corrupt and that it did more to harm its members than it did to help them, would you stay or leave? If you'd choose to stay, why? Is social acceptance so important to you that you'd stick around at all costs, or would you at some point say, "Enough! I have enough integrity to stand up for what I truly believe and move on!"?
Some of the reasons.

A lifetime of indoctrination (the ideas and attitudes that one has been raised to accept without question); fear (fear of hell that one has been indoctrinated into believing exists, fear of missing out on the boat to paradise when they die that one has been indoctrinated into believing in); reluctance to run the risk of being ostracized by friends and family for breaking free from one's indoctrination (never knowing how many of those friends and family are having the same doubts); intellectual dishonesty (being too intellectually lazy to to think the beliefs that one has been indoctrinated into, through to their logical conclusion, because every time that is attempted the contradictions become too confusing).

Because leaving one's religion is too much trouble.
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Old 08-24-2019, 07:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Some of the reasons.

A lifetime of indoctrination (the ideas and attitudes that one has been raised to accept without question); fear (fear of hell that one has been indoctrinated into believing exists, fear of missing out on the boat to paradise when they die that one has been indoctrinated into believing in); reluctance to run the risk of being ostracized by friends and family for breaking free from one's indoctrination (never knowing how many of those friends and family are having the same doubts); intellectual dishonesty (being too intellectually lazy to to think the beliefs that one has been indoctrinated into, through to their logical conclusion, because every time that is attempted the contradictions become too confusing).

Because leaving one's religion is too much trouble.
This about covers it.

Fear is a biggie. There's the fear of punishment. People also don't want to make that uncomfortable leap into new territory where they go from being so sure of 'the truth' to no longer being sure. They go from a place of security and comfort to the unknown and that is frightening for many. It's comfortable and safe to be sure. It is uncomfortable and disconcerting to venture into not being sure of what is up. Many do not want to give that up and will cling onto the ready made paradigm.

Also, I would add ego to the list. It's a huge ego boost and sense of superiority to think that one is on the 'saved boat' with all of the other saved people who are in God's favor. It's like being the teacher's pet or the parent's favorite. There is a sense of superiority with that in which people do not want to give up. 'We are right following the right path and you are all wrong following the wrong path. We are the smart, good, right, and wise ones and all of you are not. We are special, saved, and set apart. All of you are not.'

You take that sentiment away from someone and the very foundation gets ripped out from under their psyche. It can be emotionally and psychologically brutal to leave one's paradigm of reality and so many do not even think of going there. It's much easier, more comforting, and safe to keep the blinders on and just keep on, keeping on believing. They perceive and filter reality in a way that reinforces the beliefs that they hold and so for many, there is little chance of ever escaping the paradigm.

Last edited by Chloe333; 08-24-2019 at 07:52 AM..
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Old 08-24-2019, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
22,080 posts, read 22,425,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe333 View Post
Also, I would add ego to the list. It's a huge ego boost and sense of superiority to think that one is on the 'saved boat' with all of the other saved people who are in God's favor. It's like being the teacher's pet or the parent's favorite. There is a sense of superiority with that in which people do not want to give up. 'We are right following the right path and you are all wrong following the wrong path. We are the smart, good, right, and wise ones and all of you are not. We are special, saved, and set apart. All of you are not.'
Yes, but in my OP, I was talking about someone who was convinced that they were not on the 'saved boat,' people who were convinced that the religion they were in was wrong, not right.
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Old 08-24-2019, 08:56 AM
 
814 posts, read 444,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Yes, but in my OP, I was talking about someone who was convinced that they were not on the 'saved boat,' people who were convinced that the religion they were in was wrong, not right.
Oh my bad! I should have read the OP more carefully. I guess then lots of why people would stick around would be fear. Tired of the Nonsense did a good job outlining the various fears involved.
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Old 08-24-2019, 09:07 AM
Status: "Super. Thanks for asking." (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
26,417 posts, read 13,744,225 times
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Fear of ostracization?

ETA: I see Tired covered that one.
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