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Old 08-27-2019, 01:52 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,472 posts, read 11,169,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew View Post
Comparing Atheism and Christianity


<<snip>>

-----
3 Big Questions:

1. How did the universe originate (time, space, matter)?

2. How did life originate on Earth from non-life?

3. Does objective truth and/or objective morality exist?
-----

<<snip>>
I may as well throw my comments in here.


1. How did the universe originate (time, space, matter)? Nobody knows for sure.


2. How did life originate on Earth from non-life? Chemistry and Physics

3. Does objective truth and/or objective morality exist? I doubt it, but I don't think morality is objective. "Truth" has useful definitions. Look in a dictionary.

I have no idea why people have to write pages and pages to cover such simple stuff.
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Old 08-27-2019, 01:58 PM
 
40,426 posts, read 11,389,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Thank you, Mensaguy & MQ. I am enjoying this thread immensely. I am refraining from posting in it for fear of having it closed, but it is quite interesting.
Agreed. I am certainly not going to stick my nose in here apart from a bit of prompting.
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Old 08-27-2019, 02:25 PM
 
40,426 posts, read 11,389,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
I may as well throw my comments in here.


1. How did the universe originate (time, space, matter)? Nobody knows for sure.


2. How did life originate on Earth from non-life? Chemistry and Physics

3. Does objective truth and/or objective morality exist? I doubt it, but I don't think morality is objective. "Truth" has useful definitions. Look in a dictionary.

I have no idea why people have to write pages and pages to cover such simple stuff.
I would guess because they get converted by simple evangelical fallacies such as Kalam, evolution denial, supposed Historical attestation of Jesus. And when they try to regurgitate them, they find they are false. But by then they are Hooked and get upset and go into denial.

I find it interesting that IWMN begins by arguing from First cause. One of these days, I'm going to agree with the proponent until they begin, delighted.. "Right, well then, Jesus says.." And I reply. "I don't care. If there is a God, I'll go with his Last Revelation. Inshallah." And let them deal with the "Which god?" Argument. Because ToN knows that he's just sparring with IWMN here. Seeing whether he can even get himself into the pool before they see who swims best.
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Old 08-27-2019, 02:35 PM
 
40,644 posts, read 27,157,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I find it interesting that IWMN begins by arguing from First cause. One of these days, I'm going to agree with the proponent until they begin, delighted.. "Right, well then, Jesus says.." And I reply. "I don't care. If there is a God, I'll go with his Last Revelation. Inshallah." And let them deal with the "Which god?" Argument. Because ToN knows that he's just sparring with IWMN here. Seeing whether he can even get himself into the pool before they see who swims best.
In keeping with the R&S context:

Romans 12:3 : For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
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Old 08-27-2019, 02:41 PM
 
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You may have forgotten, but I remember a time when (on Christianity forum) you dismissed Paul as unreliable, because he disagreed with what you were preaching. We do not need your preaching, especially not on people who think too highly of themselves, and especially not on this thread.
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Old 08-27-2019, 02:53 PM
 
40,644 posts, read 27,157,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
You may have forgotten, but I remember a time when (on Christianity forum) you dismissed Paul as unreliable, because he disagreed with what you were preaching. We do not need your preaching, especially not on people who think too highly of themselves, and especially not on this thread.
I was sure it was a futile effort. So sad that you confirmed it.
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Old 08-27-2019, 02:59 PM
 
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Mystic, your 'efforts' are now futile. Didn't you get the e -mail? You and your preaching is now discredited. Save wasting our time with it.
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Old 08-27-2019, 03:27 PM
 
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Please respect our request to refrain from off-topic, insults, or otherwise not contributing something of value to the discussion. I have no problem with productive comments, including your own answers to the ‘3 big questions’. [thanks mensaguy!]

Once TotN and I have adequately discussed our answers to the “3 questions’ we welcome anyone’s productive comment or question. Maybe give us another day or two? If we start to repeat ourselves, it will seem we are done saying what we want to say. At that point comments are wide open to all on any related topic.

[TotN: let me know your thoughts about this.]

Last edited by Iwasmadenew; 08-27-2019 at 03:49 PM..
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Old 08-27-2019, 04:10 PM
 
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Fine with me.
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Old 08-27-2019, 09:49 PM
 
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*I'll deal with your answers to the 3 questions one at a time...

Question 1: Origin of the Universe

TotN: “the state of a singularity is purely theoretical. No such state can be observed, and the very existence of such a state [i.e. singularity] cannot currently be explained by classical physics.”

So we both agree that a singularity could be described as ‘supernatural’?

Supernatural: The concept of the supernatural encompasses anything that is inexplicable by scientific understanding of the laws of nature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural

———

TotN: "there is absolutely no basis for supposing that the universe simply popped into being where nothing had existed before."

"Our experience is that CAUSE ALWAYS PRECEDES EFFECT. Based on all observation and experience, we have every reason to suppose that the universe was BORN as a result of energy which already existed."


That’s a theory, but not one that has the credibility of the Big Bang theory. As I noted earlier, from the wikipedia page:
"Current knowledge is insufficient to determine if the singularity was primordial (i.e. existed prior to the Big Bang)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
———

TotN: "The question 'Where did the energy for our universe come from' is echoed in the question, 'Where did the energy in a black hole go?' The obvious answer in both cases is SOMEPLACE ELSE. A direction which is beyond the plane of our existence which we can not, as of yet at least, perceive."

"So when the question is asked, "where did the energy of the big bang come from, the answer, based on the example of black holes, is someplace else."

"What occurred prior to the big bang? The implication is, a period of massive gravitational collapse. And prior to THAT? Attempting to answer that question would be getting too far ahead of ourselves."

Are you suggesting a scenario where another universe existed, prior to our ‘big bang’, that contained a star (several times the mass of our Sun) that collapsed, resulting in a black hole that provided the energy that caused the Big Bang that created our universe? If so, please cite a source for this theory. I would like to investigate its credibility.

Also, I don’t see attempting to answer the "prior to THAT" question as getting ahead of ourselves. This is the infinite regress issue and you’re just kicking the can down the road.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_regress

Even if you entertain the multiverse theory, there had to be a cause that preceded the 'event' of the first ‘big bang’?
------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Michio Kaku is correct. We have no direct knowledge of what occurred before the big bang. The big bang itself is not something that we can observe and conduct experiments on. We can only observe and conduct experiments on conditions which exist today.

As I already pointed out, one of the things we observe, and which was the subject of many experiments over the years, is the nature of energy itself. It has been observed that energy can be changed from form to form, but that no energy is neither gained or lost in the process. This is stated in the law of conservation of energy.

Wikipedia
Conservation of energy
In physics and chemistry, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant; it is said to be conserved over time. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

If energy cannot be created or destroyed, it is eternal. That is pretty much the definition of eternal. We have NO EXPERIENCE of energy simply popping into existence from nothing.

Another thing that I pointed out is that is that no discreet beginnings are observed. NONE. Every effect occurs as the result of an earlier cause without fail! This chain of cause and effect stretches back to the big bang itself. We cannot observe the big bang of course, only interpellate its occurrence based on observational evidence.

The big bang represents the earliest cause that we can interpellate. Does that mean it is the first cause, and was itself without cause? That question cannot be currently answered with certainty, but since we have NO EXPERIENCE of effect without earlier cause, we have no reason to suppose that the big bang was without cause.

The religious of course maintain that God was the cause. God created energy from nothing. And what was God's cause? In violation of all observation, God is declared to be without cause!

And from whence came THIS observation? It's not an observation at all. It was simply made up and declared to be true. It therefore represents make believe!

The sort of make believe that humans have traditionally manufactured as a result of ignorance since before the dawn of recorded history. Just as we are ignorant of what cause resulted in the big bang. We can make a few educated guesses concerning what may have occurred prior to the big bang, however, based on observation.

The idea of a body so massive that even light could not escape was briefly proposed by English clergyman John Michell in 1784. No one took the idea seriously. The idea would reappear in the 20th century however as a puzzling consequence of Einstein's theory of relativity. Even Einstein thought the idea of an infinitely dense point mass was unrealistic. The math kept indicating that such a thing was not only possible, but unavoidable, however. The term "black hole" was coined in the 1960's to refer to what was still considered an unreliable and unrealistic conclusion. Today of course black holes are not only accepted, but are considered to be one of the greatest insights of physics. It is now recognized that supermassive black holes reside at the core of all giant galaxies.

A black hole can result from the collapse of a star several times the mass of the sun. When it occurs all the material, which Steven Hacking referred to as "information," disappears entirely from our plane of existence. Only its gravity remains.

Where does this "information" go? Someplace else. Someplace outside of our universe of space/time. Another dimension that we cannot, as yet, perceive.

So when the question is asked, "where did the energy of the big bang come from, the answer, based on the example of black holes, is someplace else Energy can neither be created or destroyed. But it can disappear and reappear someplace else.

Based on the example of black holes, what occurred prior to the big bang? The implication is, a period of massive gravitational collapse. And prior to THAT? Attempting to answer that question would be getting to far ahead of ourselves.

Time is relative to the conditions being experienced by the observer. It's not something that can be strictly confined within the parameters of your preferences.

What are the odds of the occurrence of an incalculable number of random "big bangs" producing "galaxies, let alone life, you ask?" Something approaching 100% certainty. What we are looking at here is the possibility that EVERY BLACK HOLE represents a unique universe unto itself. The known universe potentially has trillions of black holes. If the universe itself is the end result of the formation of a black hole, the number of black holes is unknowable. An unknowable number of universes, each with its own unique set of rules.

Outside of the parameters that govern space/time in this, our known universe. I am unable to comment on what possible parameters rule other areas outside of the known universe. ARE THERE other areas outside if the known universe? Where did the information in a black hole GO?

Wikipedia
Miracle
A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle

A miracle is a supernatural explanation typically proposed as a result of being ignorant of the actual cause. Ancient people were ignorant of modern science. As a result they concluded that naturally occurring events must be the result of a supernatural cause. Wind and rain and earthquakes, for example, were caused by various gods. Eventually it was concluded that only one god was responsible for everything.

And then along came modern empirical science to explain things.

So let me explain things.

The sun is a super heated ball of mostly hydrogen and helium, which, because of its mass, is undergoing a thermonuclear reaction. As the material of the sun is compressed, it causes the atoms of gas to be in rapid motion. HEAT! This occurs because certain of the quanta (the minimum amount of any physical entity), vibrate at a frequency arbitrarily referred to as negative, and other of the quanta vibrate at a frequency arbitrarily referred to as positive. Quanta which vibrate with a positive frequency are strongly attracted to quanta which vibrate at a negative frequency. However, quanta which vibrate at the SAME frequency (positive/positive negative/negative) are repelled by each other. This unending process of attraction/repulsion is the basis (the cause; the foundation) of quantum mechanics.

The sun beams out radiation in all direction. Some of this radiation is composed of positively and negatively charged particles. The Earth is bathed in this ongoing source of energy. When the charged particles from the sun strike the material of the Earth, the positively and negatively charged particles that compose the Earth are forced to move in response to the positive and negatively charged radiation coming from the sun. As a result the material that comprises the Earth is forced to move. Faster and faster. HEAT! The surface of the Earth however, does not heat up uniformly. more radiation strikes the equator while less strikes the poles. The side of the planet facing away from the sun cools, while the side facing the sun heats up. Also, land heats up quicker than water. Warm air rises. Cooler denser air is pulled into the vacuum caused by the rising warm air.

We call this movement of air WIND!

The same radiation from the sun causes molecules of water to percolate up into the air. HUMIDITY. When the water molecules rise high enough to cool down, they combine forming drops too heavy to remain suspended in the air and fall back down again.

We call this RAIN!

The mass of the Earth compresses the material deep underground. As the material is compressed the positively and negatively charged particles that compose the material the Earth is forced to move faster and faster. The result is superheated magma, which pushes its way up into the cooler rock of the Earth's crust, causing the crust to spread.

Causing movement along fractures in the Earth's crust. EARTHQUAKES

No god is responsible for ANY of this. It's all the result of a process called quantum mechanics. The concept of God/gods and miracles which are outside of natural or scientific laws is the result of residual ignorance. It's the make believe conceived by our ignorant ancient ancestors.

A "leap of faith" typically derived from individuals who are ignorant of the current state of natural or scientific laws.

Which is understandable. Most of this knowledge was unknown until modern (the 20th century) times.

Fred Hoyle also rejected the big bang, and was at the center of many conflicts with other scientists. Fred Hoyle was a self described atheist, who at the same time stated that there must be a super intellect behind physics. Like many people raised in a world dominated by the religious (Hoyle was born in 1915), Fred Hoyle remained influence by religious ideas.

Is it reasonable to conclude that the universe exploded out of nothing? I have never made such a claim. Is it reasonable to conclude that the universe is the result of an earlier cause?

That is in fact the OBVIOUS conclusion.

Is it reasonable to suppose that God arose from nothing? Or that God created Himself, thus preexisting His own existence? Which are both explanations for the existence of God that I have seen proposed by sincere believers. The third possibility is that God has existed eternally. The law of conservation of energy indicates that energy has existed eternally. What difference is there between these two possibilities? The law of conservation of energy is derived from centuries of experimentation and observation. The concept of God is derived from centuries of make believe and ignorance of the actual condition of the universe. A noticeably significant difference.

Not really.

The whole agnosticism/atheism question is a semantics game. Do I, as an atheist, know that there is no God? I do not possess any greater supernatural powers of "knowing" anything to a perfect certainty than any other person? NOPE! On the other hand, is there any real reason to suppose that the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy are real? Humans are fallible, and none of us has the superpower of infallible knowledge. And yet it is possible to reach what are essentially unequivocal conclusions on certain questions.

This is the same semantics game as above. If I claim there is no absolute truth, how can I declare ANYTHING to be true?

There are two classes of "truth" to consider. One is physical truth. There is truth to be found in physical events. The other kind of truth is philosophical "truth." This truth is in reality simply opinion.

Let's take a hypothetical example. A mother lion tracks, stalks and subsequently kills a baby antelope. She then drags the baby antelope home to feed to her young. The precise accurate details of what happened to the baby antelope represents "physical truth." Declaring the lioness to be "evil," for killing the baby antelope, or "good," for feeding her cubs, is an opinion. A HUMAN opinion. It is neither absolutely true, or absolutely false. What occurred was simply an event. The universe is indifferent to events. Humans tend make a judgement of the event based upon an arbitrary personal response to it. A response largely dictated by the ramifications the event has for them personally.

My point exactly. The shape of the Earth is a physical truth, independent of human opinions. Human opinion concerning the shape of the Earth has changed over time. The truth of the shape of the Earth has not changed.

While it is my opinion that murdering babies is unacceptable under any circumstance, this is not exactly a universal truth. According to the Bible, disemboweling and decapitating children and babies is right and necessary under certain circumstances.

Numbers 31
[15] And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
[16] Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
[17] Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
[18] But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Joshua 6
[20] So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.
[21] And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Joshua 11:
19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, [/b]as the Lord had commanded Moses.[/b]

Ezekiel 9
[4] And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
[6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
[7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

Samuel 1 15:
[2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
[3] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


Other examples of the wanton murder of children and babies throughout history exist, including Christian history.

The massacre of the Waldensians by soldiers of the Pope which occurred in 1655, for example:

"Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians

Was the massacre of the Waldensians right or wrong? The massacre of the Waldensians was an EVENT. Concluding ot to be either right or wrong is AN OPINION.

So where might we find an absolute standard of "objective truth" that we might regard as beyond dispute? In the Bible? Clearly not. In Christianity? Clearly not. Because there is no such "absolute standard of morality." The best we can do is attempt to come together in mass, condemn such events, outlaw them, and vow (make laws) promising to bring any such perpetrators to justice.

Wikipedia
Genocide convention
The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948 as General Assembly Resolution 260. The Convention entered into force on 12 January 1951.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention

Senate Ratifies Treaty That Outlaws Genocide - Los Angeles Times - Feb 20, 1986
The Senate, overcoming almost four decades of opposition from conservatives, voted overwhelmingly Wednesday to ratify a post-World War II declaring genocide to be a crime.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...800-story.html
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